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Old 01-04-2012, 10:15 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,016,914 times
Reputation: 4365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
It damn sure is, user ... once again, you are off into territory without a map or a clue. Chimp and baboon troupes are prime examples ...
Dude...seriously? Firstly, as I said before, I don't live in a troop so none of this is even relevant, instead I live in a nation state with over 300 million members. The social structure is much different. But to make matters worse you're not even getting the basic facts right. Firstly, chimp and baboon troops have little in common. The two species have rather different social structures, indeed almost every detail is different. Secondly, your statements about baboons are just wrong. Baboons live in layered societies with the family unit being the basic building block, from there you have harems and then clans (clans don't always exist, especially in smaller troops). Troops are a collection of loosely connected clans and its rather common for clans, harems and even individual males to separate from the troop. Your claim that individuals detached from a troop are attacked is greatly mistaken, baboon warfare is centered around the control of females not random violence. The biggest worry of a sole male is going to be other animals, not his fellow baboons.

Now I realize that you sorts think you're real knowledgeable (apparently by some sort of bizarre osmosis), but I promise books won't hurt you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
You were born here and you choose to stay here -- because the U.S. is your preferred relationship ... otherwise you would leave. You do not feel any obligation to your country, we know, you have stated such. But you remain associated for your benefit.
Choose to stay here? Not really. You see, being born here means I grew up here, it means my family is here, it means my friends are here, etc. The fact that I'm here has nothing to do with the nation state and everything to do with family, friends, etc. Also, its not exactly easily to move from country to country, so even if I wanted to be a citizen of another country it would be difficult to achieve.

But, most importantly, this ignores the real issue here. There are nationalistic thugs , as yourself, in every country, indeed, the existence of a nation depends on strong nationalism. So what exactly does moving achieve? Not much in the current state of matters. Now, if I was forced to make major sacrifices or become under threat from the nations henchman (e.g., you) that would change everything, but so far that hasn't been the case.

Anyhow, fighter jets still do little to protect the nation...though I still do hope that its all really a plan against an alien invasion. At least that would be a little less crazy....

Last edited by user_id; 01-04-2012 at 10:42 PM..
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Old 01-04-2012, 11:21 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,853,309 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Dude...seriously? Firstly, as I said before, I don't live in a troop so none of this is even relevant, instead I live in a nation state with over 300 million members. The social structure is much different. But to make matters worse you're not even getting the basic facts right. Firstly, chimp and baboon troops have little in common. The two species have rather different social structures, indeed almost every detail is different. Secondly, your statements about baboons are just wrong. Baboons live in layered societies with the family unit being the basic building block, from there you have harems and then clans. Troops are a collection of loosely connected clans and its rather common for clans, harems and even individual males to separate from the troop. Your claim that individuals detached from a troop are attacked is greatly mistaken, baboon warfare is centered around the control of females not random violence. The biggest worry of a sole male is going to be other animals, not his fellow baboons.

Now I realize that you sorts think you're real knowledgeable (apparently by some sort of bizarre osmosis), but I promise books won't hurt you.


Choose to stay here? Not really. You see, being born here means I grew up here, it means my family is here, it means my friends are here, etc. The fact that I'm here has nothing to do with the nation state and everything to do with family, friends, etc. Also, its not exactly easily to move from country to country, so even if I wanted to be a citizen of another country it would be difficult to achieve.

But, most importantly, this ignores the real issue here. There are nationalistic thugs , as yourself, in every country, indeed, the existence of a nation depends on strong nationalism. So what exactly does moving achieve? Not much in the current state of matters. Now, if I was forced to make major sacrifices or become under threat from the nations henchman (e.g., you) that would change everything, but so far that hasn't been the case.

Anyhow, fighter jets still do little to protect the nation...though I still do hope that its all really a plan against an alien invasion. At least that would be a little less crazy....
But dude, you do, exactly, live in a gigantic primate troop ... and your elucidation of primates -- including the baboons -- is completely off the points ... you just draw sh*t out of nowhere and throw it into the discussion to create smoke screens or something so you can continue debating. I never said chimp and baboon troops were similar ... I simply used them as two examples of different but very violent primate species. The layering and hierarchies you describe do not in the slightest contradict what I said. In fact, I even pointed out that, once primate societies -- all kinds of primates -- reach certain numbers, yes, they spin off, individually and in groups ... and those spin off's do not hang around the peripheries. And individual loners are often attacked -- out of the blue. Because of some association with challenge to females? Yeah probably plenty of that. Just like people. Further, the layering you describe for baboons -- the various "units, harems, and clans" is relational to your earlier comments about our own society being made up of many sub-cultures and societies ... homo sapiens is just the most complex of the primates -- and yet a primate none the less.

But the reason primates came into the discussion at all is because YOU made the first reference to humans as primates: "Nah...just primates doing what they usually do...." Primates live in troops which units' maximum size are relational to the size of the species' individual neo-cortex. This includes humans. The estimated maximum size of truly cooperative and caring social grouping in homo sapiens is 150 - 200 individuals. As you so brilliantly point out, we live in a society of over 300 million individuals - thus, if one is to believe science, we live beyond our natural ability to cooperate at a level of true concern as we were designed to do.

Now, all that said, it is quite hard to imagine such an abrasively arrogant individual as you as having any family or friends at all -- let alone 150 - 200 -- that would care about you ... and in all of your posts you certainly do not express any concern for anyone -- just the opposite. It is easy to surmise that you hang out in America because it suits other agendas -- nevertheless a deliberate association. You choose to remain. Yet you live without allegiance. Some would call that self-absorbed, parasitic behavior. And you benefit from the nationalistic defense undertaken by others in our silly giant troop -- all the while ridiculing it.

But however silly we are -- we are what we are -- and we do attack each other and that requires defensive strategies and commitments -- which you hold yourself above -- while surviving that others do the dirty work. You can say that 'if humans didn't act so stupidly, then we wouldn't need such stupid activities' ... and I would agree with you, actually. And "IF a toad had wings, he wouldn't bump his arse every time he hopped" either ... but toads don't have wings ... so they do bump their arses ... and humans are cruel primates waaaaay the freak out of their natural social limitations ... and the only way to survive this reality is to accept it and confront it at times.

Sometimes jet fighters are the best way to do that. (Finally got there )

Now you can take my quaint little homily about toads and spin off into a tangential debate with yourself about the social order of amphibia. I've had my good time with this one. Catch you later, slick.
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Old 01-05-2012, 02:50 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,016,914 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
But dude, you do, exactly, live in a gigantic primate troop ...
Except of course that troops are small group structures that are largely egalitarian...and I live in a huge civilization. Equating a troop with a modern civilization is beyond absurd....this isn't even worth addressing further.....nor are your other assertions which are blatantly false.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
As you so brilliantly point out, we live in a society of over 300 million individuals - thus, if one is to believe science, we live beyond our natural ability to cooperate at a level of true concern as we were designed to do.
No, you are just grossly misinterpreting what you are quoting. What is also funny is that it (your interpretation) conflicts with your insistence that I worship the nation-state and those that supposedly protect it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Some would call that self-absorbed, parasitic behavior.
Self-absorbed? Certainly. Parasitic? Probably. Does any of that bother me? Not one bit. Your nationally charged morality is of no concern to me. I can't change the world, I can't change this country....but I can certainly exploit matters and enrich myself.

Anyhow, you can pretend all you wish that human warfare is the natural result of human nature, but its not, instead its the result of the diseased memes that have so successfully implanted in your head.
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