U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
 
Old 01-14-2012, 03:26 PM
 
Location: Yucaipa, California
8,331 posts, read 10,509,655 times
Reputation: 4626

Advertisements

Brown & the legislature is owned by the public unions.

 
Old 01-14-2012, 03:34 PM
 
Location: San Diego California
6,196 posts, read 3,402,510 times
Reputation: 4476
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Aside from the fact that most libertarians are ultra-conservatives in flaming drag, your claim that "illegals [are] attracted by lenient policies such as the Dream Act" is pure nonsense ... the number of illegals who will ever qualify for, let alone actually benefit from, the Dream Act is infinitesimally small... fraction of a single %. Illegals are attracted to America and California for the opportunity to feed themselves and their families, and for the same reasons you like it here.
The difference is I have a legal right to be here and to enjoy the benefits of living here. They do not. They are breaking our laws. Your comment about policies not attracting them is complete idiocy and indicative of the reason the State is in decline.
 
Old 01-14-2012, 04:10 PM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,418,170 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Nor, I guess, can you and some others attempt to make a point without insulting the faith and beliefs of millions.

That's really weak.
Chief, I don't look down upon peoples' naming the quality of infinite wonder and creation: "God". I don't find it strange or ridiculous that we sense that amorphic quality we term "spirit" in ourselves, each other, or the universe. I do, however, recognize that claims made upon that sense of infinite wonder and spirit, in the forms of specific dogmas and mythologies, develop into religions then used as weapons of conflict. There is nothing more responsible for suffering and ignorance in our world than religion. It has nothing to do with "God" -- it is all about manipulating power through fear.

Now for the segue about mythologies and Jerry Brown (or Obama, or other scapegoats)? Belief that any individual is the cause of complex struggle -- or can be the sole solution is neither supported by history nor science. The notion that we can elect or rely upon a remarkable person who will lead us out of the wilderness of human imperfection is -- well, stupid.

First off, salvation is a personal proposition. There is no "group salvation". Individuals must look within themselves first. A priori. And since such process relies on individual experience over time, and all people are coming and going independently -- there's not going to ever be a "group arrival" and consensus on anything. Religion preaches militaristic methodology for salvation: you mindlessly accept the precepts, rules, and techniques: genuflect, eat crackers, say words, whatever, and you will enter heaven at some point.

But government, unlike religion, has to accommodate vast numbers of divergent individual traits and interests and desires. There is no single dogmatic method to achieve social / economic utopia -- as there is proposed to achieve heaven. The closest any governments / rulers have ever come at times to providing a "happy camper" effect has been with the odd benevolent dictator / king type here and there. Democracy doesn't get it done. It can't. It's like a religion where -- for example in America -- 315 million people get to have their own individual dogmas. (Actually, there IS one religion like that: Unitarianism ... curiously, that is the [non-Christian] church my folks belonged to as humanist / atheists.)

What's brilliant about democracy -- and what I love about it -- is that it is a process of living in which each individual is allowed to be engaged in creating a reality -- however imperfect -- that approximates social cooperation. Homo sapiens is a social animal. It's science. We do not naturally exist to sacrifice the many for the few. We generally tend to cooperation to solve group problems that favor the "herd" in total.

And looking for saviors, religiously, or politically, is counterproductive, mythological nonsense.

But I also recognize the brilliance of these famous words: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." And thus, as always: here we are.
 
Old 01-14-2012, 04:15 PM
 
Location: SW MO Aux Arcs
19,222 posts, read 16,572,878 times
Reputation: 17345
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Chief, I don't look down upon peoples' naming the quality of infinite wonder and creation: "God". I don't find it strange or ridiculous that we sense that amorphic quality we term "spirit" in ourselves, each other, or the universe. I do, however, recognize that claims made upon that sense of infinite wonder and spirit, in the forms of specific dogmas and mythologies, develop into religions then used as weapons of conflict. There is nothing more responsible for suffering and ignorance in our world than religion. It has nothing to do with "God" -- it is all about manipulating power through fear.

Now for the segue about mythologies and Jerry Brown (or Obama, or other scapegoats)? Belief that any individual is the cause of complex struggle -- or can be the sole solution is neither supported by history nor science. The notion that we can elect or rely upon a remarkable person who will lead us out of the wilderness of human imperfection is -- well, stupid.

First off, salvation is a personal proposition. There is no "group salvation". Individuals must look within themselves first. A priori. And since such process relies on individual experience over time, and all people are coming and going independently -- there's not going to ever be a "group arrival" and consensus on anything. Religion preaches militaristic methodology for salvation: you mindlessly accept the precepts, rules, and techniques: genuflect, eat crackers, say words, whatever, and you will enter heaven at some point.

But government, unlike religion, has to accommodate vast numbers of divergent individual traits and interests and desires. There is no single dogmatic method to achieve social / economic utopia -- as there is proposed to achieve heaven. The closest any governments / rulers have ever come at times to providing a "happy camper" effect has been with the odd benevolent dictator / king type here and there. Democracy doesn't get it done. It can't. It's like a religion where -- for example in America -- 315 million people get to have their own individual dogmas. (Actually, there IS one religion like that: Unitarianism ... curiously, that is the [non-Christian] church my folks belonged to as humanist / atheists.)

What's brilliant about democracy -- and what I love about it -- is that it is a process of living in which each individual is allowed to be engaged in creating a reality -- however imperfect -- that approximates social cooperation. Homo sapiens is a social animal. It's science. We do not naturally exist to sacrifice the many for the few. We generally tend to cooperation to solve group problems that favor the "herd" in total.

And looking for saviors, religiously, or politically, is counterproductive, mythological nonsense.

But I also recognize the brilliance of these famous words: "Forgive them Father, for they know not what they do." And thus, as always: here we are.
Not gonna argue with you, Nully. Pointless. You'll just, once again, insult the millions who do believe in something greater than themselves. In the end, we'll all find out, one way or another, or not!
 
Old 01-14-2012, 05:16 PM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,418,170 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Not gonna argue with you, Nully. Pointless. You'll just, once again, insult the millions who do believe in something greater than themselves. In the end, we'll all find out, one way or another, or not!
By all means. But consider that there are as many millions insulted by the sins of religion, as there are religious faithful. And consider that believing in "something greater than [ourselves]" has resulted in what, exactly, so far in history? ... while seeking wisdom by looking within has produced some of history's most remarkable thinkers and individuals -- some of whom have been turned into mythological religious icons by opportunists. It is exactly this compunction to seek answers from outside ourselves that leads to abdication of individual responsibilities.

Tiptoe around religion has been the name of the game for thousands of years ... first for fear of retribution from religion -- which has been well known and documented for its virtually limitless tortures and cruelties and insults to human dignity ... and now for fear of offending sensibilities of those remaining within its illusion? This isn't about "God" sir ... this is about dogma based on manipulative mythologies. "God" doesn't have anything to do with it. God would take umbrage at what is done in the name -- and with the chutzpa of people who dare to define the infinite mystery.
 
Old 01-14-2012, 07:02 PM
 
Location: SW MO Aux Arcs
19,222 posts, read 16,572,878 times
Reputation: 17345
In rest my case!
 
Old 01-14-2012, 08:55 PM
 
14,199 posts, read 26,341,715 times
Reputation: 8357
My candidates rarely win... in fact... I would say if they have my support... they are pretty much doomed

I really believe Tom McClintock would have had the best shot to fiscal stability... I know he was not in the Governors race last go round.

I also believed the Delafuente would have been a vast improvement in the Mayor seat for Oakland... realizing that he has baggage too.

One saving grace for Governor Brown is that he is on record many times saying changes in Prop 13 are off the table... I believe he is credited with saying Prop 13 is the third rail of California Politics...
 
Old 01-14-2012, 09:13 PM
 
Location: SW MO Aux Arcs
19,222 posts, read 16,572,878 times
Reputation: 17345
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
My candidates rarely win... in fact... I would say if they have my support... they are pretty much doomed
I really believe Tom McClintock would have had the best shot to fiscal stability... I know he was not in the Governors race last go round.

I also believed the Delafuente would have been a vast improvement in the Mayor seat for Oakland... realizing that he has baggage too.

Quote:
One saving grace for Governor Brown is that he is on record many times saying changes in Prop 13 are off the table... I believe he is credited with saying Prop 13 is the third rail of California Politics...
LOL! And he was hard-set against it before he became a born-again for it. But it's only us old farts who remember that.

Last edited by Ultrarunner; 01-14-2012 at 11:24 PM.. Reason: repaired quote
 
Old 01-14-2012, 09:24 PM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,418,170 times
Reputation: 3806
[quote=Curmudgeon;22547883]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner View Post
My candidates rarely win... in fact... I would say if they have my support... they are pretty much doomed

I really believe Tom McClintock would have had the best shot to fiscal stability... I know he was not in the Governors race last go round.

I also believed the Delafuente would have been a vast improvement in the Mayor seat for Oakland... realizing that he has baggage too.

One saving grace for Governor Brown is that he is on record many times saying changes in Prop 13 are off the table... I believe he is credited with saying Prop 13 is the third rail of California Politics...[/QUOTE]

LOL! And he was hard-set against it before he became a born-again for it. But it's only us old farts who remember that.
Well, saying "changes in Prop 13 are off the table" doesn't mean Brown flip-flopped, for one thing ... it means he recognizes its mandate and that its mandate makes it "the third rail of California politics" ... in which case, he is simply acknowledging that it would be suicide for him to mess with.

On the other hand, if he has come to actually embrace it, you can call that flip-flopping -- but people have been known to learn and change as they move through life ... as such, flip-flopping is not always a sign of weak character or disingenuity ... it can be a sign of acquired wisdom. Yeah, put me down as a Prop 13 supporter -- although I wonder that it maybe could be tied to an income and net-worth sliding scale. There's a BUNCH of folks in California benefiting who don't need the break. But good luck ever getting that revision through!
 
Old 01-14-2012, 11:28 PM
 
14,199 posts, read 26,341,715 times
Reputation: 8357
[quote=nullgeo;22547998]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Well, saying "changes in Prop 13 are off the table" doesn't mean Brown flip-flopped, for one thing ... it means he recognizes its mandate and that its mandate makes it "the third rail of California politics" ... in which case, he is simply acknowledging that it would be suicide for him to mess with.

On the other hand, if he has come to actually embrace it, you can call that flip-flopping -- but people have been known to learn and change as they move through life ... as such, flip-flopping is not always a sign of weak character or disingenuity ... it can be a sign of acquired wisdom. Yeah, put me down as a Prop 13 supporter -- although I wonder that it maybe could be tied to an income and net-worth sliding scale. There's a BUNCH of folks in California benefiting who don't need the break. But good luck ever getting that revision through!
In many ways simply indexing the Home Owner Exemption would have protected folks of moderate means from being taxed out...

I will never understand why the Legislature rejected this until the eleventh hour when Prop 13 was predicted to be unstoppable...
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2011 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top