Surviving the New California (Magalia: pre-school, living, law)

[Dean Trails]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

My faith is that of Junipero Serra and the Franciscan founders of California;

We we all know how that worked out for the California native population.
Sighs

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

All are mortal sins from a Catholic perspective. You taught at a Catholic university and this is news to you?

So is birth control. Know any Catholics who practice it? I do. How about an uncountable number. So, no, not news to me a bit ... most Catholics I know commit a cornucopia of mortal sins ... fact be told, many priests commit them regularly ... as may often be read in the news.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

If you will recall, that was a quote by my fellow religious extremist, the father of our country, President George Washington (from his Farewell Address).

Yeah: reference .highnlite's post just previous to this one. Thing is you quoted it as supportive of YOUR belief.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

No wonder the Church is such a mess. And who was the genius who hired you?

Well, it was quite a long time ago, but as I recall, I was hired by an academic committee ... whch included priests and department heads. Since the department I taught in was not concerned with religious subjects, it didn't seem to be an issue. As I recall I was asked if I was Catholic and I responded honestly that I was not. I don't recall any debate further. I'm sure the church would be wounded at your assessment that it is a mess because it hires LOTS of non-Catholics for teaching positions in universities and parochial schools everywhere -- as well as non-Catholic doctors at Catholic hospitals, etc etc etc.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Being Catholic does have its benefits.

Yes. Access to innocent young boys in the vestry, among them.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

They were "gracious" in the face of your belligerent, militant, juvenile atheism? Either they were fools or you were better behaved around them then you are around here. But nevermind. Well-meaning Christians have tried to "dialogue" with, and to avoid offending, barbarians like you for much too long now. Has that tamed your rage any? Obviously not a bit. You're just playing games. One might discuss the existence of God with an honest, genteel, old-fashioned atheist who believes in certain realities, but not with slippery post-modernists who can't follow a syllogism and who keep moving the goal posts.

Well, actually the priests I speak of sought me out for conversation as they found me rather interesting in my honesty and intellect both. I recall one, a professor of philosophy, during one conversation after classes, told me I was "the closest thing to pure spirit" he'd ever met. They enjoyed my company and I'm sure they'd be amused at your calling them "fools". Was I better behaved around them than the manner in which I respond to your ugly judgmental bigotries? Certainly. They didn't attack nor condemn even those they considered sinners. That said, I also have known a number of really really really creepy priests who I did not get along with a bit.

Interesting you should bring up syllogisms and goal posts. You set your dogmatic, ideological goal posts and expect others to honor them. When persons then tell you that your goal posts are not common to all men you quote dogmatic fictions or select passages without regard to context from history to support your specious position and declare us sinners. Funny -- we don't all even recognize sin ... yet we are apparently guilty in your eyes because you are ---- ? god's own voice, right? Without which he is powerless to be heard. Got it.

Syllogisms? Heh, the priest who considered me the "closest thing to pure spirit" he'd ever met was a professor of logic. I sat in his courses for fun. He loved having me there. Found my ability with syllogisms and other logical gymnastics delightful entertainment. He was the very priest who introduced me to others, which resulted in many conversations over much scotch and bourbon.

"belligerent, militant, juvenile atheism"?

You talk to imaginary friends, as I keep pointing out. And I am "juvenile"?

You have rigid dogmatic beliefs controlling your life and world view. And I am "militant"?

As for "belligerent": bubba, I don't waste my intellect on "discussions" with fanatics. I've probably got a lot more education and culture in my history than you -- but what is significant here is I have life experience that infuses my education with reality. You can't even scratch the surface of my life experience. You're not discussing intellectual, philosophical issues. You're preaching dogmatic bigotries left and right -- trying to not appear Sophistic. And my life experience simply says: 'In your face'.

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Please. I'm not as "gracious" as your favorite spineless Catholics? Not as non-judgmental, tolerant and inclusive as they are? I'm going to lose a week of sleep over this.

Correct. And I'm sure that my spineless Catholic friends and relatives will be wounded to hear they are not within your god's arms.

[.highnlite]

Don't forget the good rightwing evangelical Christians who believe that Catholics are pagans.

It reminds me of "speaking in tongues" some Christians see it as a sign of god, some Christians see it as a sign of satan.

If the Christians cannot figure out who is a Christian and what comes from god, I may as well go pet my dog.

[Fontucky]

Homosexuality - "sexual perversity"
Atheists = "barbarians"

Where do I sign up for this Jefferson thang? It sounds like FUN! In a Spanish Inquisition, Middle Ages sort of way. I'll bet I could make a mint selling stuff like this in the new State of Jefferson!

[.highnlite]

Not as non-judgmental, tolerant and inclusive as they are?

Matthew 7:1

Jesus contrary to the beliefs of some, was a liberal.

Over and over again, He taught us to believe in and live a
spiritual and ethical life based in our essential, inherent
goodness. What Jesus promoted was succinct set of
spiritual principals and a way of life based upon the of love,
compassion, tolerance, and a strong belief in the importance
in giving and of generosity to those in need.

[iron_woman]

regardless of what you say, california still holds the early days

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Dean Trails

We we all know how that worked out for the California native population.

It worked out well and saved their souls. Some of their descendants still frequent the mission chapels ... perhaps ask them how it worked out?

"Ever since morning the grief-stricken people had been waiting and listening for the tolling death-bell to announce that all was over. At its first note they came in crowds, breathless, weeping, and lamenting. It was with great difficulty that the soldiers could keep them from tearing Father Junipero's habit piece-meal from his body, so ardent was their desire to possess some relic of him. The corpse was laid at once in a coffin which he himself had ordered made many weeks before. The vessels in port fired a salute of one hundred and one guns, answered by the same from the guns of the presidio at Monterey, --an honor given to no one below the rank of general. But the hundred gun salutes were a paltry honor in comparison with the tears of the Indian congregation. Soldiers kept watch around his coffin night and day till the burial; but they could not hold back the throngs of the poor creatures who pressed to touch the hand of the father they had so much loved, and to bear away something, if only a thread, of the garments he had worn."

[.highnlite]

California Indian populations were decimated by over 90% by exposure to European diseases. I do suggest a bit of research before posting.

Interesting quote you have there, makes me wonder what the soldiers were doing hanging out at the missions... Well, we do know, they killed the indians that dared reject the Padres, and the created Mestizos as fast as they could.

The Central Valley was explored by Spanish soldiers chasing down escaped slaves.. oops, I mean escaped christians, oops I mean indians.

Joseph Walker, American Trapper found a village near San Emigdio of Spanish speaking indians in 1834, they were all escapees from the Missions.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

So is birth control. Know any Catholics who practice it? I do. How about an uncountable number. So, no, not news to me a bit ...

I know it's hard for someone who makes up his own rules in life, but for the sake of conversation how about trying to follow an argument rather than looking for openings to create another straw man?

It doesn't matter how many Catholics or non-Catholics commit mortal sins, or whether you commit them, or whether I commit them. What matters is whether an act is, by definition, objectively sinful. Torturing cats, murder, and sodomy are mortal sins according to Catholic doctrine and therefore there is nothing "extreme" about linking them when discussing public policy. Artificial birth control is also sinful, whether practiced by 99% of Catholics or just 1%. A moral code for grown ups is something better than "but Mom, everyone else is doing it".

As a doctrinaire atheist, you have no basis for declaring anything to be right or wrong beyond your own two-bit opinion. You don't believe in sin, so for you "anything goes". Fine. But normal people who have outgrown their teenage rebellion phase derive their morality from their religious faith. That's not extreme at all. I'd go hunt for a relevant Gallup poll but I'm not going to do your homework for you.

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Yeah: reference .highnlite's post just previous to this one. Thing is you quoted it as supportive of YOUR belief.

No, I quoted Washington because I believe what he wrote to be true, and also as evidence against your absurd claim that such views are "extreme" and "unpatriotic".

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Yes. Access to innocent young boys in the vestry, among them.

You are truly a man without shame. Calumniating 96% of priests who have never been accused of these abominations comes easy to you. Is this how you return the gracious treatment you received from the kind priests of your acquaintance? With friends like you, who needs enemies indeed.

Originally Posted by nullgeo

I've probably got a lot more education and culture in my history than you -- but what is significant here is I have life experience that infuses my education with reality.

OK, Nullgeo, let's talk about you. Because that's what it always comes back to. Forgive me for not addressing every fact in your glowing autobiography. You're obviously fond of promoting your own personal qualities on C-D - yes, I've done a bit of homework - and it's clear that you enjoy your own company. I admit that it's quite possible that you have more education, culture, battle scars, life experiences, etc. than I do. Lots of people do and I'm happy to assume you are one of them. Of course none of this has anything to do with the topic at hand, but if you needed to hear that from me, there it is.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

Best I can see the new "state" ends up with a two party system.. The government hating religious right and the government hating "stick it to the man" radical left...

I don't think so. What looks like libertarianism to outsiders is really just locals being fed up with having mandate after mandate imposed on them by an out-of-touch government and being powerless to change anything. We're treated like a conquered territory without representation. When the inland counties do vote effectively as a bloc - take Proposition 8, for example - the state squashes or stalls the outcome in a hurry.

Originally Posted by TrueTimbers

Tell you what pilgrim, you would like Wisconsin... Lots of Catholics and a bar on every city block... Alcohol, Church and Football are a way of life for many ..

Too much sports and booze for me, and far too cold, but otherwise Wisconsin sounds great. :-)