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Old 01-23-2012, 01:04 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,833,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
I have studied it quite closely when I applied to Pitt, and also visited it for a conference. It lacks the majesty of the Sierra, but is not as down at heel as you think. There is a good deal of negative branding, but some could also say that San Francisco, for instance, is overrated. I would say the latter is as much a problem as the former, if it translates into insane real estate prices. Pittsburgh also has a super friendly and active C-D board. I don't want to continue talking about a non-California place (and yes, I am no expert), or argue with anyone about it, but I think it is important to point out that other places have virtues, and a good number of them have better conditions for folks starting out. That was my general point.
I agree that there are good places besides California ... lots of them ... for lots of reasons ... just don't agree with Pittsburgh as an example. I lived in central Pennsylvania and have been to and thru Pittsburgh many many times. I don't trash it. I don't hate it. It is a non-place for me. A place I have to go thru sometimes between points A and B. Never a place to linger.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:13 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,989,062 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
I recommend you read up on Pittsburgh. It is much more impressive than your stereotype suggests. And a much better place for most professionals to start a career than most California cities.
Oh yeah you recommend that? There is a bit of a problem here though....I lived in Pittsburgh for years. What about you? Visited for a day or so stayed around the universities?

Anyhow, Pittsburgh is rather different than California. Most people that were born/raised in California aren't going to like Pittsburgh, indeed, it took me 2 years or so just to stop hating it there. Its not just the culture that is different, but living in a region that has been decaying economically for decays is a lot different living in a state that has been growing rapidly for decades. I never saw such extreme poverty or blight until I
moved to Pittsburgh.

And the Pittsburgh city-data forum? Its necrotic. You can't say anything negative without a violent back-lash.......that doesn't speak well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
As for top earner in Palo Alto? Sure they would earn more, as that is the biggest software hub in the world, but honestly how representative are elite Silicon Valley people of California. I would imagine very, very few people in California are landing those super terrific jobs. A few Californians get the gold mine. The rest get the shaft.
You don't get to eat your cake at eat it too. You mentioned Palo Alto, obviously because its an expensive place, yet you want ignore what sort of people live there. Now you want to point out that Palo Alto isn't representative of California as a whole, which is completely true, but the costs in Palo Alto also aren't representative of California as a whole as well.

How exactly are people in California getting the shaft? There numerous areas throughout California that are affordable.
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Old 01-23-2012, 02:02 AM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,982 posts, read 13,695,325 times
Reputation: 5689
Well, I must concede the floor here, arguing with TWO former Pennsylvania residents......you win!

As for California, it suffers from too much hype. I have been from Brawley to Alturas, and you are right, there are nice, fairly affordable places, but much of the coastal belt is out of sight. Sorry, I am not buying some dude's POS house in Sonoma for the "low $500s". I'll go somewhere affordable. I am actually looking into Merced, not because it is great, but because there is an opportunity in my field, and it is not overpriced and in the middle of a sprawling megalopolis. It is a great state, but not without serious problems. Many people would live nowhere else. I am not one of them.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:13 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,989,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
... but much of the coastal belt is out of sight. Sorry, I am not buying some dude's POS house in Sonoma for the "low $500s". I'll go somewhere affordable.
I'm really not sure what you mean by the "coastal belt", but even if you're just looking at the actual coast there are still some affordable areas. Of course, they aren't major job centers...

I really don't understand why people expect the entire country to be affordable by the middle-class. San Fransisco and its connected communities are some of the most expensive areas in the country and the only thing that is going to change that is if all the wealth in the area picks up and leaves. Why exactly are these pockets of wealth in the state a bad thing? But these sorts of costly areas are by far the minority in California. Even in the bay area there are plenty of affordable areas, they just aren't in the most desirable communities with the best schools etc.
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Old 01-23-2012, 01:38 PM
 
1 posts, read 1,753 times
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It appears you missed the underlying sarcasm in Wing Feathers post ;-)
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Old 01-23-2012, 07:51 PM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,472 posts, read 3,531,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I really don't understand why people expect the entire country to be affordable by the middle-class. San Fransisco and its connected communities are some of the most expensive areas in the country and the only thing that is going to change that is if all the wealth in the area picks up and leaves.
I think there are still enough people around who remember when that was the case. My parents bought a home in the Sunset District of Western San Francisco in the 1964 for 22K. My dad's sister bought a home in Fresno about the same time and it was 17K. Of course the properties weren't apples to apples but both were single family homes with three bedrooms and two baths. I read somewhere several years ago (and naturally I can't find the article now) that home prices in San Francisco in the 1960s were about 50% higher on average than the Central Valley cities. In the 2000s that had increased to 200% higher. A lot of factors have driven this (scarcity of land, "location, location, location" and population growth), but it has pushed a number of working class/middle class families out of The City and even the Bay Area.

Basically, there was a time not terribly long ago that the demographic of most of San Francisco wasn't too different from any other town or city (middle class families predominating). Coastal California has changed a lot in my lifetime.
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Old 01-23-2012, 09:15 PM
 
12,823 posts, read 24,274,772 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffredo View Post
I think there are still enough people around who remember when that was the case. My parents bought a home in the Sunset District of Western San Francisco in the 1964 for 22K. My dad's sister bought a home in Fresno about the same time and it was 17K. Of course the properties weren't apples to apples but both were single family homes with three bedrooms and two baths. I read somewhere several years ago (and naturally I can't find the article now) that home prices in San Francisco in the 1960s were about 50% higher on average than the Central Valley cities. In the 2000s that had increased to 200% higher. A lot of factors have driven this (scarcity of land, "location, location, location" and population growth), but it has pushed a number of working class/middle class families out of The City and even the Bay Area.

Basically, there was a time not terribly long ago that the demographic of most of San Francisco wasn't too different from any other town or city (middle class families predominating). Coastal California has changed a lot in my lifetime.
To wit:

The Rise of the New Global Elite - Magazine - The Atlantic

The Bay Area (or more precisely, the Western Bay Area, with a smidgeon of the central, inner, East Bay) has been designated by the Global Elites as their territory.
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Old 01-23-2012, 10:14 PM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 19,989,062 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffredo View Post
I think there are still enough people around who remember when that was the case. My parents bought a home in the Sunset District of Western San Francisco in the 1964 for 22K. My dad's sister bought a home in Fresno about the same time and it was 17K. Of course the properties weren't apples to apples but both were single family homes with three bedrooms and two baths.
Except of course that it was never the case. So long as there has been a "middle-class" there has been areas of the country that have been too expensive for them. San Fransisco may have been affordable to the middle-class 4~5 decades ago, but the area has transformed throughout the years and has become an area that is not within the reach of the middle-class. Why expect an area to be affordable for the middle-class just because it was decades ago?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffredo View Post
but it has pushed a number of working class/middle class families out of The City and even the Bay Area.
Sure...but so what? Why is this a bad thing? Why most every area of the country be affordable to the middle-class? Are we suppose to be living in a classless communist state? I really don't get what people find so difficult about all this....
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Old 01-24-2012, 12:28 AM
 
Location: San Francisco
1,472 posts, read 3,531,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Except of course that it was never the case. So long as there has been a "middle-class" there has been areas of the country that have been too expensive for them.
Not until the last 20 years or so. Places like the inner core of metro Boston, New York, San Francisco or DC had plenty of middle or working class until the 1990s. There are of course certain upscale neighborhoods or communities that were never affordable, but on a whole the region was. I know there's nothing that can be expected to be done about the situation. Time marches on and this isn't Post WW II America anymore. I was merely responding to your statement that you didn't understand why some think the middle class should be able to live "anywhere". Using a broad brush stroke almost anyone over the age of 40 can remember a time when you could (excluding those isolated upper income communities).

In spite of things being what they are I don't think its particularly healthy for a city to be so expensive for middle class families that teachers, police, firefighters and tradesmen feel compelled to commute long distances to somewhere like San Francisco. There has always been suburbanization nationwide, but it wasn't usually driven by the middle class feeling they couldn't afford the core city (even if they wanted to live there). Yes, I feel the stratification of wealthy and poor in a city or region is a bad thing.

To qualify my still living in this city - I'm definitely middle income, but I saved for many years to get my 20% down to purchase a home here. After the death of a family member I was able to pay off my home. I doubt I could have done it in my working lifetime (being I only have about 15 years left to work) and was prepared to retire somewhere else. I'm very fortunate, but that doesn't mean I'm not sympathetic to situation of others.
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Old 01-24-2012, 09:50 AM
 
12,823 posts, read 24,274,772 times
Reputation: 11039
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Except of course that it was never the case. So long as there has been a "middle-class" there has been areas of the country that have been too expensive for them. San Fransisco may have been affordable to the middle-class 4~5 decades ago, but the area has transformed throughout the years and has become an area that is not within the reach of the middle-class. Why expect an area to be affordable for the middle-class just because it was decades ago?


Sure...but so what? Why is this a bad thing? Why most every area of the country be affordable to the middle-class? Are we suppose to be living in a classless communist state? I really don't get what people find so difficult about all this....
A two class system is actually fuel for the fire, welcomed by the Communists. They hate societies with strong middle class situations. Those are hard to crack. But a two class society? Manna from heaven, for the Communist revolutionary (and the community organizer).
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