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Old 01-25-2012, 09:31 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,018,307 times
Reputation: 4365

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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
I disagree..... My spouse and I do "mundane jobs", she is a Nurse assistant and I am self employed, working wood, and growing organic produce... We frugally live paycheck to paycheck, sometimes a expenses comes up beyond our income.... We dip into savings, others not so fortunate go into debt.
How is this a counterexample? Your savings from the past allows you to live a higher standard than would otherwise possible. Are you suggesting that your budget can't be reduced? I bet I can find a couple in your area that is living off less than you currently make just fine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
The accumulated wealth of past decades and of generations is being consumed slow but sure, also personal debt is increasing on a national scale..
"Accumulated wealth" is just claims on future production. If future production has been hurt, as you claim, then "accumulated wealth" has to be similarly reduced.
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Old 01-25-2012, 09:39 AM
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,460 posts, read 20,018,307 times
Reputation: 4365
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fiddlehead View Post
What I do think is a bit unique is that California appeals to younger Americans and immigrants, but it is becoming and increasingly difficult place to get started and chase the American dream.
What exactly is the American dream? When younger people say this, it tends to really mean the "McMansion dream". That is, their desire to own a big ugly stucco box because their masters at HGTV, etc have convinced them that such is desirable.

So what about living in a 1-bedroom apartment in San Fransisco precludes one living the "American Dream"? I can tell you, I'd much rather live in a 1-bedroom apartment in San Fransisco than own a 3,000 sf home in most areas of the country.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:07 AM
 
Location: San Jose
68 posts, read 166,732 times
Reputation: 81
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
What exactly is the American dream? When younger people say this, it tends to really mean the "McMansion dream". That is, their desire to own a big ugly stucco box because their masters at HGTV, etc have convinced them that such is desirable.

So what about living in a 1-bedroom apartment in San Fransisco precludes one living the "American Dream"? I can tell you, I'd much rather live in a 1-bedroom apartment in San Fransisco than own a 3,000 sf home in most areas of the country.
The American Dreamâ„¢ is to be better off than your neighbor(s), or at least being perceived as better off, which is that much harder to do in an area with a lot of wealthy people.

-- ilya
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,981 posts, read 3,140,598 times
Reputation: 1771
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Firstly, "the middle-class" as known in pop-culture is just a political talking point and little else. Secondly, incomes for the middle income cohorts have increased, not decreased, since the 1970's. In the 1970's the 50th percentile average income was around $42k (in today's dollars) today it is around $50k.

The real issue is that the perception of what the "middle-class" is suppose to be able to afford has changed..... All one needs to do is watch HGTV for a few hours to see what is happening....indeed didn't that channel use to be about gardening and home repairs and such? Didn't the Discovery channel use to be about...I don't know educational things? Literally everything on TV is about marketing these days....so people's desire for consumer goods has reached great heights.

LOL......................Hellooooooo.... Try inflation adjusted numbers.... You can thank Nixon for taking us off the Gold standard on that one...

Gas was $.70 cents today $4.... That is across the board, we have had massive inflation, with little income increases..

I see your point, and fully agree, with the young and their gadgets and "necessities".... However, that is not me... I am farm raised by depression era parents... I know how to cook pig fat into something edible, and am a master of bubble gum and baling twine repairs...

Last edited by TrueTimbers; 01-25-2012 at 11:13 AM..
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Pluto's Home Town
9,982 posts, read 13,720,885 times
Reputation: 5689
I think a confusing dynamic in all of this is the boomer bubble. The boomers arrived in California, in particular, from the 1960 onward and spawned a massive expansion in public hiring, real estate development,etc. that was self-reinforcing. So center of gravity of society was becoming older and wealthier from about 1980-2005 or so, and because their net worth had been bouyed by rising asset prices (stock, housing,etc), while taxes were declining from historic highs, they were able support a spending spree like none previously. Now, the boomer bubble has peaked, and we are finding that the subsequent generations (Gen. X in particular) cannot maintain the long-term bubble. Very, very few people graduating from college now can expect to land a sweet job, buy an affordable home that will appreciate at far above inflation, etc. They will be lucky to find a professional job within three years of graduating, and when they do, they will need to pay off large student loands, and then to save for years for a down payment on a home with prices at 5-10x income, and have a heavier tax burden to pay for the boomers medicare and the infrastructural improvements largely ignored for the last 30 years. It is a different game altogether. Demographics have been a huge factor in all this, both in terms of the economic trends, and the changing expectations.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:42 AM
 
844 posts, read 2,095,768 times
Reputation: 488
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'd much rather live in a 1-bedroom apartment in San Fransisco than own a 3,000 sf home in most areas of the country.
You say 1 bedroom "apartment"... I say "human filing cabinet" (ala Fight Club)

If you're happy living in constrained, oppressive jail-like cells, then by all means do so! You will go through less of a shock when Obama finally throws the Socialist switch.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:45 AM
 
1,658 posts, read 3,538,256 times
Reputation: 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
And the Pittsburgh city-data forum? Its necrotic. You can't say anything negative without a violent back-lash.......that doesn't speak well...
That describes most CD forums, including all the California ones.
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Old 01-25-2012, 10:48 AM
 
1,658 posts, read 3,538,256 times
Reputation: 1710
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Fiddlehead, have you actually lived in Pittsburgh, PA? Or even spent much time there? Real question, not a snarky start. I think I read you before saying you are native Californian. I don't think that many folks from outside the Ohio / West Virginia / western Pennsylvania area would find Pittsburgh a vibrant new start to life ... (well, okay, folks from Gary, Indiana probably would). Really, seriously, incredibly different from anything California ... and I don't mean in a "neat-o" way. Uh, "reading up" on Pittsburgh, and living Pittsburgh are quite different. It is just not a "go-to" place unless you've got a really special reason.
Pittsburgh has the biggest Furry Convention in the world:

Anthrocon 2012: A Midsummer Night's Dream: June 14th to 17th, 2012 | "Fur, Fun, And So Much More!"
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:05 AM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,981 posts, read 3,140,598 times
Reputation: 1771
Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
How is this a counterexample? Your savings from the past allows you to live a higher standard than would otherwise possible. Are you suggesting that your budget can't be reduced? I bet I can find a couple in your area that is living off less than you currently make just fine.


"Accumulated wealth" is just claims on future production. If future production has been hurt, as you claim, then "accumulated wealth" has to be similarly reduced.

Of course one can always reduce their budget... We are discussing quality of life decline. The demise of the middle class and the concentration of wealth...Not weather or not people can survive on a root cellar full of potatoes or not..

I spent a Decade plus in the "haves" catogory, with the 6 figure income and so forth... We made the consious choice to drop out, to live a simple life, of raising our childeren and not sending them to day care....

I would be up to the challenge of your "bet"... OK ...We have two children and are quite frugal.... We basically have a subsistence lifestyle... Used cloths, kids share a room, 900sq house, raise 50% of our own food, spend $400 a month on groceries for a family of 4... Yep $100 a month each... One cell phone on a pay by use plan for emergencies, no TV service, heat 100% with free wood, drive a 1999 truck, go out to eat about 4 times a year... I would cut the Internet, but it is crucial for my business.. oh yes and $0 debt...

If we had any debt what so ever we would be underwater.... Look at the stats on how personal debt has increased while savings have decreased the last few decades.... Yes accumulated wealth is on the decrease for many Americans... that was my point... Matter of fact the entire nation is in debt so far it may be impossible to get out of it... Complete economic collapse is a possibility.. Without your "pop culture political talking point middle class" their is no tax base.

The problem in California and nationwide is not a lack of jobs, but a lack of jobs which pay a wage above the poverty line... With fewer worker protections and mostly part time jobs without benefits available... The quality of life has declined for many... I know many people living in trailer homes, working two jobs 60 hours a week just getting by paycheck to paycheck...

Sure spoiled American kids and their gadgets are part of the problem... But thread after thread on the oppressive cost of living in California is not just about too many Ipod subscriptions... There is more too it ya think?
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Old 01-25-2012, 11:09 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Radical347 View Post
Pretty funny
... although, I'd say it kinda supports my point about Pittsburgh, don't you think?
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