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Old 01-21-2012, 07:34 AM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,981 posts, read 3,140,598 times
Reputation: 1771

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
The vote only won by 4.6% of the population....

I would not exactly call that "quite alot of opposition". Sounds like a split right down racial and theological lines....

In 00 there were less immigrants from Mexico than in 08. I suspect it squeaked by in 08 because of the ever increasing population of immigrants from Mexico, which tend to be Catholic.

It other "liberal/open minded" laws will be challenged in the future, because many of the Christian right population do not believe in contraception and feel it is their duty to multiply rapidly......

It is my opinion we will be thrown back to Medieval times, where we stone people who commit sins, such as premarital relationships, gay and so forth, while Salem style Witch trials burn all that do not comply at the stake... That is of course after the up and coming crusades/jihad....

I propose proposition xx, which limits families to having only two children....

 
Old 01-21-2012, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Bella Vista, Ark
77,772 posts, read 104,325,455 times
Reputation: 49248
Quote:
Originally Posted by hgnmx View Post
Wondering why California failed to legalize gay marriage perminantly after Prop 8. How long will it take next time?

Just curious.
Probably a long time, remember there are sections of Ca that are very conservative and yes, some are even evangelical.
 
Old 01-21-2012, 10:42 AM
 
Location: Near L.A.
4,108 posts, read 10,766,816 times
Reputation: 3444
Do I like Prop 8? Not necessarily. However, the will of the people was well spoken with a clear (but not "with mandate") majority.

Having said that, I find it truly disgusting that a tiny handful of activists, including activist judges, mostly from the Bay Area are playing a role in overturning Prop 8. What good is the voice of the people and adherence thereof if a few dozen people successfully tell 38,000,000 others that "this is how it should and will be?" That's not justice or equitability; that's arrogance!

Put a prop on the ballot to overturn Prop 8. I'd vote to overturn it. But, in this republic, not democracy, we live in, I am all for states rights. Don't like Mississippi's constitutional amendment? Work within it to overturn it or move to a state with more gay-friendly policies. I might not have said this in 1965 pertaining to racial and ethnic civil rights because of the extremity of situations in cities like Memphis, Birmingham, Selma, and Greensboro, but society has become much more accepting all the way around, including in the South. Quite honestly, the homosexual community does not have to suffer the discrimination they and other groups have had to in the past.

I've had gay co-workers and supervisors before. I valued them on their competency and their personality, not their homosexuality.
 
Old 01-21-2012, 10:56 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,941,883 times
Reputation: 551
Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticEars View Post
Do I like Prop 8? Not necessarily. However, the will of the people was well spoken with a clear (but not "with mandate") majority.

Having said that, I find it truly disgusting that a tiny handful of activists, including activist judges, mostly from the Bay Area are playing a role in overturning Prop 8. What good is the voice of the people and adherence thereof if a few dozen people successfully tell 38,000,000 others that "this is how it should and will be?" That's not justice or equitability; that's arrogance!

Put a prop on the ballot to overturn Prop 8. I'd vote to overturn it. But, in this republic, not democracy, we live in, I am all for states rights. Don't like Mississippi's constitutional amendment? Work within it to overturn it or move to a state with more gay-friendly policies. I might not have said this in 1965 pertaining to racial and ethnic civil rights because of the extremity of situations in cities like Memphis, Birmingham, Selma, and Greensboro, but society has become much more accepting all the way around, including in the South. Quite honestly, the homosexual community does not have to suffer the discrimination they and other groups have had to in the past.

I've had gay co-workers and supervisors before. I valued them on their competency and their personality, not their homosexuality.
False--People with non-white skin couldn't BLEND IN visually, unlike "homosexuals"--this is why there's less visible discrimination--because the bigots can't tell right away who is gay, while they could tell right away if someone's non-white; so, gay people are forced to act to fake the behavior of "heteros" to avoid discrimination, which shouldn't be the case (wouldn't it be a "communist" thing? All like one). I guess all the hate crimes and murders of gays were made up by the cops and the courts.

Last edited by alexxiz; 01-21-2012 at 11:07 AM..
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Declezville, CA
16,806 posts, read 39,823,761 times
Reputation: 17684
Quote:
Originally Posted by EclecticEars View Post
Do I like Prop 8? Not necessarily. However, the will of the people was well spoken with a clear (but not "with mandate") majority.
Civil rights can not be left up to "the will of the people".
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:14 AM
 
Location: Near L.A.
4,108 posts, read 10,766,816 times
Reputation: 3444
Quote:
Originally Posted by alexxiz View Post
False--People with non-white skin couldn't BLEND IN visually, unlike "homosexuals"--this is why there's less visible discrimination--because the bigots can't tell right away who is gay, while they could tell right away if someone's non-white; so, gay people are forced to act to fake the behavior of "heteros" to avoid discrimination, which shouldn't be the case (wouldn't it be a "communist" thing? All like one). I guess all the hate crimes and murders of gays were made up by the cops and the courts.
I don't disagree necessarily with your first two sentences. However, in the last just 10-15 years, I honestly have met few people who just give a crap about sexual orientation. This includes in the oh-so-supposedly-intolerant small town South. I know a few who are hard-righters, and they also think Obama is the anti-Christ; I just listen for a couple of minutes and move on.

This isn't about hate crimes and murders of gays, as unfortunate as those may be (i.e.: the recent stories out of Indianapolis and New York, as well as Matthew Shepard in Wyoming in the '90s.) I'm not trying to discount those whatsoever. I'm just a Republican--and I mean that in the republic sense, not necessarily the political party; if a law takes effect per legislation, proposition, etc. and the populace grows tired of or disenfranchised with it, it is the peoples' responsibility to take steps to change. Such as, replacing elected officials, calling Sacramento until the switchboards shut down, etc. The courts honestly should stay out of Prop 8.
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:20 AM
 
4,307 posts, read 6,243,914 times
Reputation: 6102
Quote:
Originally Posted by hgnmx View Post
Wondering why California failed to legalize gay marriage perminantly after Prop 8. How long will it take next time?

Just curious.
Well, lets see if the supreme court votes to overturn this. It'll probably be another 2-3 years until it finally makes it to the supreme court. A lot of this will also depend upon whether Obama gets re-elected and whether one of the conservative justices dies or retires in that time. Currently, it is slanting conservative 5-4, so if something doesn't change, I don't see it overturned.

Now, in terms of state ballots, the younger generation definitely has a much more liberal view for this (less archaic point of view). We really need to see a big demographic shift (death of many baby boomers, big influx of young people to the state, etc). While I think its generally moving in this direction, it is slow and I'm not confident it would be a big enough demographic shift to overturn now. Probably in 10 years or so.

So, the way I see it, the stars really need to align for this to be overturned within the next few years. Otherwise, we're most likely looking post 2020.
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:21 AM
 
1,027 posts, read 1,941,883 times
Reputation: 551
Well, if the law takes effect upon legislation or proposition, it can also turn out to be unconstitutional--this is what the overturning process is about, taking it up to higher courts, a standard process, and activists and judges certainly have a right to fight against law they believe to be unconstitutional. Personally, I don't think that every single thing could be left to the majority vote of population, or we'd still have lynching trees in some counties/states. People don't want to wait for "demographic shift" and death of generation here, as lives/youth of people are passing by as this process is happening and times goes by. Personally, I don't understand fight for marriage rights, as I believe marriage institution should be abolished, as it looks more like tax, property and insurance fraud and racket, and a big legal business, than anything else (or course it'd take a long time to abolish state-recognized marriage--it should be left to remain religious marriage--because so many lawyers live off the thing)

Last edited by alexxiz; 01-21-2012 at 11:45 AM..
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Near L.A.
4,108 posts, read 10,766,816 times
Reputation: 3444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fontucky View Post
Civil rights can not be left up to "the will of the people".
It was with Prop 8.

I'll elaborate a little more: Had Prop 8 never occurred or been rejected, I would have much less of a problem with judicial intervention, appeals process, Supreme Courts and all. But, this WAS an issue left to the will of the people. Like it or not, the law still stands and hasn't formally been struck down. Granted, I think it will make it all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court eventually, resulting in a potentially landmark ruling that will expand, preserve as-is, or annul homosexual marriages in this country.

Until then, I absolutely oppose a few dozen working in cohort or successfully arguing their way to judicial victory. Do I like discriminated? Hell, no, I don't; I'm a white man that has been discriminated against by females in a predominantly female workplace, although they "covered it" in ways where they didn't make it look discriminatory. It completely sucks. I sympathize with any homosexuals who have been or even feel like they have not had their voices heard by society, employers, even family members. That's why I contact my local legislators to place an anti-Prop 8 prop on the ballot.

Maybe I'm the minority here on C-D, but this is just my point of view.
 
Old 01-21-2012, 11:38 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Very good then ... proper sourcing ...
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