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Old 02-01-2012, 04:07 PM
 
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
2,190 posts, read 6,835,918 times
Reputation: 2076

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
In other words, Jaijai, you don't know what marriage is and you don't care. Why don't you leave the debate to those of us who do?
You presume to speak for me and you want to control how i contribute to a thread.

 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:15 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,164 posts, read 27,136,945 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
This discussion has been quite revealing. The most passionate voices for same-sex "marriage" are themselves unable to define marriage. Furthermore, they have expressed indifference to the very idea of marriage. Indeed they seem not to believe that marriage exists as an objective, transcendent reality in any form.

We may conclude that they don't really care about the "rights" of homosexuals with respect to marriage because they don't believe in marriage at all. Instead the same-sex "marriage" crusade is led by a pack of vandals whose only goal is to weaken the influence of traditional marriage as a social institution.
lol! What a load of hot air!

I think heterosexuals are the ones who've weakened marriage up to this point. If you want a "traditional marriage", whatever that means to you, then have one. I, as a gay man, should have the right to legal marriage. I have been with my partner now for 16 years (how many hetero marriages last that long these days?) and have two children and a house. We end up paying thousands more in taxes because we're viewed by the government as strangers. We had to spend thousands on legal paperwork to try and protect our family.

We work and pay taxes. We help our neighbors. We go to church. We raise our kids. We're probably more "traditional" than many heterosexual married couples. Yet bigots want to deny us our basic freedom and rights.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:19 PM
 
Location: Denver, Colorado U.S.A.
14,164 posts, read 27,136,945 times
Reputation: 10428
Quote:
Originally Posted by James1937 View Post
It seems to me that Gays are always on the defensive if you do not approve and embrace their chosen lifestyle. If you want to exercise your right to disapprove of that lifestyle then you are labeled homophobic. Don't spout your hate filled comments on people who very likely love you as you are, but just do not want you pushing your views on them. Hating one another is not a way to live.
Well, when you insist that it's a "chosen lifestyle", I think that qualifies you for the bigot category. I have yet to meet a human who is able to choose which sex they're able to fall in love with and be sexually attracted to
 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:25 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,589,121 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaijai View Post
and who's going to decide which mentally ill people have the right to marry?!
First things first: Is your position that free consent is necessary, or that it isn't?
 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:32 PM
 
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
2,190 posts, read 6,835,918 times
Reputation: 2076
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
This discussion has been quite revealing. The most passionate voices for same-sex "marriage" are themselves unable to define marriage. Furthermore, they have expressed indifference to the very idea of marriage. Indeed they seem not to believe that marriage exists an objective, transcendent reality in any form.

We may conclude that they don't really care about the "rights" of homosexuals with respect to marriage because they don't believe in marriage at all. Instead the same-sex "marriage" crusade is led by a pack of vandals whose only goal is to weaken the influence of traditional marriage as a social institution.
Your traditional marriage is already weak and it has nothing to do with gay marriage.
The family system (that i imagine you care a great deal about) is in dire straights and it has nothing to do with gay marriage.
My god, if you care so much about the society why do you not drop your attitudes and your prejudices and see the obvious and identify the real "enemies" in this society and around the world and and tend to the essential and core problems that humanity is facing at a critical time in human history .... which isn't gay marriage!!!!
It's absolutely irrelevant except to the gay and lesbians who want to partake in a social arrangement that they also value.
It's not fair that they should be denied it because they were born with a different sexual orientation.
And if you care so much about the particular social institution called marriage then understand the underline reasons for it's failure(s).
Tend to your own house and let other people BE!
What the h*** is wrong with you that you are so focused on a totally irrelevant issue (again, except to gays and lesbians who want to marry!) that has absolutely no negative impact on your life or on the lives of anyone else in this country or in the world?!!!

If you can't deal with homosexuality fine. Understandable. Sexuality is an intense and often complex facet of our humanness.
If you were raised Catholic, it's probably even more difficult for you to grapple with.
Deal with it ... or not. But at least be honest about what's driving you and your obsession with the issue of gay marriage.
All this intellectual and abstract blather and concern for the social institutions is just a smokescreen whether you realize it and/or admit it or not.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:39 PM
 
Location: Back in the Southland
1,054 posts, read 1,787,473 times
Reputation: 588
heterosexuals are all going to burn in hell, (name religious source here) says heteros are all abominations and need to suffer for their consequences. God Hates Straits. I am going to propose a bill banning heterosexual marriage because strait people are second class citizens. Heteros destroy the sanctity of marriage because marriage oh so sacred. Even though it says in the Declaration of Independence that all men are created equal, they are aren't because straits are un-American but the Declaration of Independence definitely still is.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:45 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,589,121 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
First things first: Is your position that free consent is necessary, or that it isn't?
Jaijai, are you going to answer this? If you can't even tell me whether free consent is necessary for a marriage then you really have no business talking about marriage one way or the other.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 04:58 PM
 
Location: Santa Cruz, CA
2,190 posts, read 6,835,918 times
Reputation: 2076
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Jaijai, are you going to answer this? If you can't even tell me whether free consent is necessary for a marriage then you really have no business talking about marriage one way or the other.
Again, it's not for you to presume what my business is.
What i care about is people.
I care about people being happy and healthy and balanced and having the freedom and the choice and the right to create their lives in the way that they find most beneficial to themselves and to the people around them.
That is what, in large part, creates a healthy society ... happy people who have found a way to live sanely and creatively and compassionately in a world that is anything but sane and compassionate and healthy.
You tell me how denvarian and his marriage and his family are hurting you in any way and how he is harming the institution of marriage.
Get real.
Not one person on this thread (if i'm remembering it accurately) who is opposed to gay marriage has answered that question.
How, practically speaking, is gay marriage harming anyone?
I could say, if i was into controlling you and your expression, that you have no business discussing this issue if you cannot answer that question.
I don't care about your intellectual abstractions.
The left brain rational approach is limited at best.
At worst, it creates monstrous humans who value the thoughts in their head more than their fellow brothers and sisters.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 05:39 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,589,121 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by jaijai View Post
Again, it's not for you to presume what my business is.
What i care about is people.
I care about people being happy and healthy and balanced and having the freedom and the choice and the right to create their lives in the way that they find most beneficial to themselves and to the people around them.
That is what, in large part, creates a healthy society ... happy people who have found a way to live sanely and creatively and compassionately in a world that is anything but sane and compassionate and healthy.
You tell me how denvarian and his marriage and his family are hurting you in any way and how he is harming the institution of marriage.
Get real.
Not one person on this thread (if i'm remembering it accurately) who is opposed to gay marriage has answered that question.
How, practically speaking, is gay marriage harming anyone?
I could say, if i was into controlling you and your expression, that you have no business discussing this issue if you cannot answer that question.
I don't care about your intellectual abstractions.
The left brain rational approach is limited at best.
At worst, it creates monstrous humans who value the thoughts in their head more than their fellow brothers and sisters.
If you care about people and about their happiness, then you will abhor the homosexual lifestyle. The homosexual lifestyle makes people miserable. It is profoundly dangerous and unhealthy - emotionally, spiritually, and physically. People who engage in homosexual acts harm themselves, they harm each other, and they harm their loved ones. They experience social pathologies at far higher rates than the general population, including promiscuity, pedophilia, sexually transmitted diseases, substance abuse, domestic violence, accidental deaths, and suicide.

Here's an article with some hard data for you.

Here's an article detailing ten ways in which same-sex "marriage" would harm society.

You are right that marriage and family have already been horribly weakened. Same-sex marriage would drive another nail in the coffin. It would make it impossible to repair the damage because, as Dr. Esolen explains, the assumption behind same-sex "marriage" is that marriage is whatever one wants it to be, a function of mere desire and not something real in itself. That cultural assumption, once accepted, destroys families and undermines real marriages too.

There is no part of society that would be untouched. For example, we have already seen religious freedom curtailed as Catholic charities in Massachusetts and Illinois have been forced to close their doors because they could not, in good conscience, facilitate adoptions to homosexual couples. Private businesses are already being penalized for refusing their services to homosexual couples, such as the photographer in New Mexico who wouldn't take pictures for a homosexual wedding. Normalizing homosexuality means depriving Christians and others of the right to religious expression.

Then of course there is the extreme damage that being raised by homosexuals inflicts upon children, who are today already experiencing unprecedented levels of sexual confusion. 70% of incarcerated criminals were raised without fathers: do we really want to perpetuate fatherlessness and motherlessness in this country?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaijai View Post
How, practically speaking, is gay marriage harming anyone?
Please read the material at the links above.
 
Old 02-01-2012, 05:47 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,589,121 times
Reputation: 1552
I'm done for a while. As a final note, until you and Nullgeo propose an alternative and credible definition of marriage, I have to assume that you simply don't have one, and that when you insert the word "marriage" into your posts you aren't even trying - you aren't even hoping - to be understood.
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