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Old 02-06-2012, 08:40 AM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 9,629,667 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
It must be tough, being an atheist in California, a state with Catholicism in its DNA, and being "preached to" every time you look at a map.
I dunno, I see old pagan names acquired from the indios, newer pagan names acquired from the Catholicos. They are quaint and cute, and historical.

The ones I hate are developer names, like The Olive Orchard, buncha houses built on what once was an olive orchard. Or Porter Ranch, built on what was once a ranch. Etc.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:27 AM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,839,074 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
It must be tough, being an atheist in California, a state with Catholicism in its DNA, and being "preached to" every time you look at a map.
Heh ... funny ... you're obsessed, Pilgrim. What a myopic view of life and universe: to think that Catholicism is "in California's DNA" in any greater significance than any number of other historical realities.

The premise of your thread here is partially interesting: historical origins of California place-names ... great. But you had to go specify "Catholic" place-names. Why? To create yet another opportunity for your preaching and proselytizing.

You introduce the thread concept by using examples such as San Francisco -- and then proceed to add comment about how "the radical Saint Francis of Assisi, an austere penitent ... would be horrified at the wickedness that is too often linked to this once great Catholic city." And then you proceed with your bigotry campaign by turning from sexual innuendo to anti-Islamic rhetoric: "San Juan Capistrano is named for the Franciscan warrior-monk whose fiery preaching converted thousands of sinners, and who is renowned for his valor in battle against the Mohammedans. California could use a saint like him today."

"Tough" being an atheist? Not in the slightest. My life is quite pleasant without imaginary friends preaching guilt and shame at me. And my social and cultural commitment and deportment clearly hasn't suffered in the slightest for my freedom.

History is a fascinating subject, Pilgrim. Catholicism is part of history -- as such, it, and its influences, are also fascinating. Its trail of oppression tells a story truly not to be missed.
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Old 02-06-2012, 11:54 AM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,582,002 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
DNA?.............LOL!!!!!..
No, just part of the world that was invaded by the particularly brutal Spanish Conquistadors, who had a tendency to erase most everything native in an area they conquered. They also practiced the most extreme version of forced conversion in religion, as it was a very effective technique to debase any strength of or pride in native ways and practices. I believe the Spaniards take first prize for the number of advanced ancient civilizations they destroyed.
So many lies to refute, so little time. I don't mind ignorance, but ignorance masquerading as knowledge is vile.

Please document for me just one, single case of a forced conversion in California on the part of the Franciscan missionaries. Just one will do. The fact is there were no forced conversions because forced conversions are objectively invalid. This is Catholicism 101 and always has been. Like marriage, free consent is essential to the sacrament. There were abuses here and there, but forced conversions were not one of them, and in fact the padres were often quarreling with the soldiers who were too ready to use force against the violence of the Indians.

As to the Spanish vs. the English colonizers, you have it exactly backwards. The English were much more brutal and the result was the virtual extinction of the Indians in North America. The Spanish, by contrast, had for their very goal the building of a new Indian civilization. They freely intermarried with them, raised families with them, and dedicated their lives to educating them.
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Old 02-06-2012, 01:56 PM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,981 posts, read 3,135,735 times
Reputation: 1771
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
So many lies to refute, so little time. I don't mind ignorance, but ignorance masquerading as knowledge is vile.

Please document for me just one, single case of a forced conversion in California on the part of the Franciscan missionaries. Just one will do. The fact is there were no forced conversions because forced conversions are objectively invalid. This is Catholicism 101 and always has been. Like marriage, free consent is essential to the sacrament. There were abuses here and there, but forced conversions were not one of them, and in fact the padres were often quarreling with the soldiers who were too ready to use force against the violence of the Indians.

As to the Spanish vs. the English colonizers, you have it exactly backwards. The English were much more brutal and the result was the virtual extinction of the Indians in North America. The Spanish, by contrast, had for their very goal the building of a new Indian civilization. They freely intermarried with them, raised families with them, and dedicated their lives to educating them.
I will give you that about the English colonizers.... I take back saying they were "better" than the Spaniards.!.

To each their own on the word "forced".Indeed it is Catholicism 101..... Surely they did not attempt to leave native ways intact... None of them did..

I am done, quite honestly I can not celebrate any of the colonizers actions..
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Old 02-06-2012, 02:23 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,582,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
I am done, quite honestly I can not celebrate any of the colonizers actions..
Nothing wrong with an honest difference of opinion. However, it appears that you don't actually know what the colonizers did and didn't do in the first place, and therefore have no basis on which to form an opinion one way or the other.

I once sat next to a pretty young blonde on an airplane. She was 27 years old, fresh out of law school, and working for a California Indian tribe. She told me - I kid you not - that the California missions "had nothing to do with converting the Indians". I suppose she learned that in fourth grade when she did her mission project. CA public schools = Marxist propaganda.
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Old 02-06-2012, 03:48 PM
 
Location: Northern Colorado
4,932 posts, read 12,707,402 times
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All of the mission cities have some historic name. Too many of which to list, but here are some others:

Pismo (derived from Pismu for tar in Chumash) Beach
Arroyo Grande-means big ditch
Atascadero-means mud hole
El Paso De Robles-The Passing of the Oaks
Oceano-Ocean
Cayucos-small indian canoes
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:27 PM
 
Location: Declezville, CA
16,806 posts, read 39,764,481 times
Reputation: 17679
My favorite (and Jack Benny's): Cucamonga. IIRC, it's a Tongva place name for something to do with "a sandy place."

More Tongva-derived names:

Azuza
Cahuenga
Pacoima
Tujunga
Topanga

Malibu is a bastardization of "Humaliwo", which is Chumash for “where the surf sounds loudly.”

Thankfully, these names survived the brutality of the Spanish Catholics and subsequent invaders, unlike the people who originally spoke those words.
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Old 02-06-2012, 05:44 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,582,002 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fontucky View Post
Thankfully, these names survived the brutality of the Spanish Catholics and subsequent invaders, unlike the people who originally spoke those words.
Native American Wars and Warfare

War Before Civilization: The Myth of the Peaceful Savage
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:01 PM
 
Location: Declezville, CA
16,806 posts, read 39,764,481 times
Reputation: 17679
Apparently I wasn't clear. "Unlike the people who originally spoke those words" was referring to surviving the brutality of the Spanish Catholics and subsequent invaders. It wasn't commentary on their warlike ways or peaceful nature.

I thought you had me on ignore because I'm a fellow vandal buddy of nullgeo.
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Old 02-06-2012, 06:15 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,254 posts, read 5,582,002 times
Reputation: 1552
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fontucky View Post
Apparently I wasn't clear. "Unlike the people who originally spoke those words" was referring to surviving the brutality of the Spanish Catholics and subsequent invaders. It wasn't commentary on their warlike ways or peaceful nature.

I thought you had me on ignore because I'm a fellow vandal buddy of nullgeo.
I see. My mistake. It's just that the people who originally spoke those words did survive - as a people, that is. Furthermore the Spanish suffered plenty of unprovoked brutality from the Chumash, so your mentioning Spanish brutality was simply gratuitous. As this "revolutionary" website gloats:

"Few contemporaries Americans know of the widespread armed revolts precipitated by Mission Indians against colonial authorities. The last great mission Indian revolt occurred in 1824 when disenchanted Chumash Indians violently overthrew mission control at Santa Barbara, Santa Ynez and La Purisima.

Santa Barbara was sacked and abandoned while Santa Ynez Chumash torched 3/4 of the buildings before fleeing. Defiant Chumash at La Purisima in fact seized that mission and fought a pitched battle with colonial troops while a significant number of other Chumash escaped deep into the interior of the Southern San Joaquin Valley.

After 1810 a growing number of guerrilla bands evolved in the interior when fugitive mission Indians allied with interior tribes and villages. Mounted on horses and using modern weapons, they began raiding mission livestock and fighting colonial military forces.


Vastly overestimating their power, Mexican authorities authorized an additional 762 land grants by 1847. In reality the effectiveness of Indian stock raiders increased dramatically when American and Canadian fur trappers provided a lucrative market for purloined horses by the mid 1830′s.

Interior Mexican ranches were increasingly abandoned in the face of economic ruin by native stock raiding activities. Even Johann A. Sutter was reduced to begging the Mexican government to buy his fort following a mauling at the hands of Miwok Indians near the Calaveras in June of 1846."

I never said I was ignoring you: I was giving advice to another poster. And I said that before I knew there was such a thing as a literal "ignore" function in the forum settings.
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