Run, Run Millionaires (Los Angeles, Oakland, Carson: middle-class, 2013, buying a home)
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Increasing the top tax rate in California isn't going to drive anybody out of the state, though I'm not so sure it would increase revenue much.
Could not disagree more...
I attended the funeral of the owner of a company that I worked for right out of school... it was a tool and die, union shop with on site engineering and development.
Hadn't been in contact with anyone in manufacturing since I left the field.
Not one of the dozens of shops that we did business with or any of our competitors are still open for business... some just closed up with the majority moving out of State...
Spoke to the owner of our second biggest competitor... he moved his business to Carson City and has a nice home in Incline Village NV... he said he is constantly running into former Bay Area folks professionally...
Why would a business pull up stakes and set up in Nevada, Arizona or Idaho.... one reason... follow the money...
Last edited by Ultrarunner; 02-25-2012 at 07:47 PM..
I would respectfully tell everyone that thinks our taxes are too high try living in another country. Haven't you ever wondered why so many people from developed nations come here?
I would respectfully tell everyone that thinks our taxes are too high try living in another country. Haven't you ever wondered why so many people from developed nations come here?
I guess it depends on which one?
Worked with quite a few that were sent here on assignment with family... none stayed... they treasured their time in California... just liked Switzerland, Luxembourg and Lichtenstein better... they were in medial instruments.
Remember the California has just about all forms of taxation... many of those in Europe have very low property taxes...
Worked with quite a few that were sent here on assignment with family... none stayed... they treasured their time in California... just liked Switzerland, Luxembourg and Lichtenstein better... they were in medial instruments.
Remember the California has just about all forms of taxation... many of those in Europe have very low property taxes...
This is my experience too...
If one takes into consideration all forms of taxation, and "life costs" such as education and health care along with taxes.. We in America do not have that good of a "deal"..
If one takes into consideration all forms of taxation, and "life costs" such as education and health care along with taxes.. We in America do not have that good of a "deal"..
Somewhat true. My boss in Denmark got free education all the way to a Master's degree. And healthcare is free too. But he had giant income taxes - somewhere around 65%. Also, durable goods are taxed much higher there - things like cars, iphones, computers are much more expensive. Americans, because of our low income taxes, have generally a higher disposable income.
Also, the millionaires running to neighboring states is true, but that doesn't change the overall business landscape. Nevada still has a 13% unemployment and with two decades of "Californians running to Nevada" you would think they would have a diverse industry base. Nonetheless, this tax policy is not well thought out.
I would respectfully tell everyone that thinks our taxes are too high try living in another country. Haven't you ever wondered why so many people from developed nations come here?
If we lived in those other countries, then you would have a point. We're talking about our state.
Not one of the dozens of shops that we did business with or any of our competitors are still open for business... some just closed up with the majority moving out of State...
This has little to do with taxes, instead the transformation of the bay area and the US economy in general. US manufacturing has declined as a whole and in the bay area in particular has dramatically shifted out of manufacturing over the years. What is funny here though is that these manufacturers were replaced with individuals and companies with deeper pockets, so your story paints the opposite reality. Namely, of lower income businesses/individuals leaving the area while higher income businesses/individuals come into the area.
The bay area isn't representative of California as a whole. Come to LA and you'll still find numerous manufacturers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ultrarunner
Why would a business pull up stakes and set up in Nevada, Arizona or Idaho.... one reason... follow the money...
Many reasons, for example being next to your key suppliers and/or customers.
Small/medium sized businesses rarely have the pleasure of picking up and leaving an area, so when they do its almost always related to their suppliers, customers, etc and not taxes. Why would a successful plant move away from its suppliers, customers, etc just to reduce their tax bill a bit?
This has little to do with taxes, instead the transformation of the bay area and the US economy in general. US manufacturing has declined as a whole and in the bay area in particular has dramatically shifted out of manufacturing over the years. What is funny here though is that these manufacturers were replaced with individuals and companies with deeper pockets, so your story paints the opposite reality. Namely, of lower income businesses/individuals leaving the area while higher income businesses/individuals come into the area.
The bay area isn't representative of California as a whole. Come to LA and you'll still find numerous manufacturers.
Many reasons, for example being next to your key suppliers and/or customers.
Small/medium sized businesses rarely have the pleasure of picking up and leaving an area, so when they do its almost always related to their suppliers, customers, etc and not taxes. Why would a successful plant move away from its suppliers, customers, etc just to reduce their tax bill a bit?
The entire area is one empty facility after another...
You are correct... the moves were not only due to taxes... although the company owner that moved to Carson City said no State Income Tax was a big factor as well as the lower cost of labor and regulatory compliance... and Nevada Incorporation Laws.
My Uncle has a parking lot in the city of Oakland with the attendant shack... each year for the last 7 years the fire department comes to inspect... he completely documented the most recent visit and it was in the newspaper...
5 fireman in a large pumper truck come to inspect... the only thing they look at is the fire extinguisher which is fine... no violations for the parking lot... the cost for the 5 minute visit... $385.
He told the newspaper he would be happy to walk the fire extinguisher to the firehouse one block away...
It's things like this that nickle and dime small business... Oakland already has a gross receipts tax irregardless of the business making or loosing money... part of the business tax was to do inspections....
East Bay business moves out of State all the time... follow the money...
I have several millionaire relatives, on both sides of the family. I don't mean the type of millionaire who worked and saved their whole lives and now barely top a million bucks on paper. I mean millionaire millionaires. They go to the office only when they feel like it or not at all, they can live off dividends and other investments and they have vacation homes in foreign countries.
I also have friends who are super rich; in addition, I have friends and relatives who are not quite rich yet but are on their way to being very rich - doctors, lawyers, and tech folks who hit the jackpot with their stock options.
None of them, I mean NONE of them had ever considered leaving CA. Oh, they complain about the taxes alright but they will never leave this state. Never. When I mentioned to them that CA is not the only game in town they laughed like I've said the funniest joke.
I don't doubt that some people are leaving this state because of taxes. What I don't know is, and the data doesn't tell us, is how many? Is it enough to be of concern? And once they leave, does the void gets filled by someone else?
I have several millionaire relatives, on both sides of the family. I don't mean the type of millionaire who worked and saved their whole lives and now barely top a million bucks on paper. I mean millionaire millionaires. They go to the office only when they feel like it or not at all, they can live off dividends and other investments and they have vacation homes in foreign countries.
I also have friends who are super rich; in addition, I have friends and relatives who are not quite rich yet but are on their way to being very rich - doctors, lawyers, and tech folks who hit the jackpot with their stock options.
None of them, I mean NONE of them had ever considered leaving CA. Oh, they complain about the taxes alright but they will never leave this state. Never. When I mentioned to them that CA is not the only game in town they laughed like I've said the funniest joke.
I don't doubt that some people are leaving this state because of taxes. What I don't know is, and the data doesn't tell us, is how many? Is it enough to be of concern? And once they leave, does the void gets filled by someone else?
.
How many millionaires are there in Calif. vs. regular middle class people? If you cared to be informed as to how many people are leaving and all the data points, you'd go use google.com .. The information is there if you want. The conclusion : there is cause for concern but its not like pigheaded snobs who think California is the best thing since sliced bread and who love paying more and more taxes will get that.
Don't be concerned or alarmed at all .. On my way out, I intend to vote for every California tax increase I can.
With the way uninformed/uncaring people talk about Calif's debt/deficit/fiscal issues/taxation, I feel every last California resident should be on the hook to pay public worker's pensions in full ! If its not possible w/ current revenue, prop 13 should be repealed, income tax hiked on anyone making over $50k a year, and sales taxes should be allowed to sky rocket.
The void is filled by low-income people ...
Given taxes, and COL, the middle class shrinks...
And ofc you have the rich people who live off of doing nothing that avoid every tax they can through loopholes who love it here.
Stockton is only a preview for Calif. at large... And all the goofy rich people in the world wont fix the revenue side as most of them don't pay taxes anyway.
P.S - I have a six figure job and have amassed close to half a million dollars and I'm in my mid 20s .. and will be leaving CA due to COL/taxes by the end of 2012 (right about when taxes will be hiked federally/CA state) .. Love it here and can afford it quite well .. but, when i have the ability to buy a house in cash, have a quarter of a million left, keep my six figure job w/ no salary adjustment, be free to enjoy my family .. travel the world and enjoy life.. I figure, why try to stay in California and just get by ..
Last edited by yeahthatguy; 02-27-2012 at 12:28 PM..
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