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Old 03-15-2012, 04:23 AM
 
Location: California
25,614 posts, read 17,133,267 times
Reputation: 18127

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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
8 majors that should be cut anyway.

Besides, universities recruit for programs they believe in. My kids are being recruited by music departments all over the country ... everywhere, it seems, but our own backyard.
Why? Philosophy, which you are against for some reason, is just as legit as a music degree. Neither are "job prep" majors but if it's someones passion wth? Education is supposed to be about a lot of things that make up the human experience.

Upon closer inspection your OP indicated it's one music major, Music Education, that is drawing low numbers. That doesn't = eliminating the music program in my book and I can't find a source. According to the CSU Chico catalog it's just an option anyway, not a major in itself.
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Old 03-15-2012, 10:59 AM
Status: "Mr. Frou-Frou man." (set 16 days ago)
 
20,712 posts, read 13,504,500 times
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And its any wonder why programs such as music are getting cut.

Buildings go up as universities' budgets go down
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Old 03-15-2012, 01:16 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,258 posts, read 2,468,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
Why? Philosophy, which you are against for some reason, is just as legit as a music degree. Neither are "job prep" majors but if it's someones passion wth?
Oh, I absolutely agree about philosophy as a discipline. My objection to the department at CSUC is that it is almost certainly very corrupt. One can tell by the code language in the course descriptions ('women's choice", etc.).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ceece View Post
Upon closer inspection your OP indicated it's one music major, Music Education, that is drawing low numbers. That doesn't = eliminating the music program in my book and I can't find a source. According to the CSU Chico catalog it's just an option anyway, not a major in itself.
You can't find a source because this is an "inside scoop". Apparently the elimination of the Music Education program would adversely impact the entire music program, even to the extent of eliminating the music outreach to the community. Undoubtedly there are faculty members teaching in multiple programs, working with the ensembles, and organizing performances. That's what concerns me the most.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:41 PM
 
Location: California
25,614 posts, read 17,133,267 times
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Quote:
My objection to the department at CSUC is that it is almost certainly very corrupt
I'm going to have to disagree with that. Oh well. Whatever happens will happen.
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Old 03-15-2012, 04:45 PM
 
Location: California
25,614 posts, read 17,133,267 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
And its any wonder why programs such as music are getting cut.

Buildings go up as universities' budgets go down

Since they are entirely seperate funding sources it's not unreasonable to keep up on the building, especially given the condition of many of the older buildings. If we put a halt to this and did nothing until the economy improved there may not be anyplace for students to go.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:14 PM
 
2,458 posts, read 1,964,585 times
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There is certainly nothing to stop the OP and other classical music lovers from donating to CSU Chico to save the program. There becomes a point where the ROI is too low. I mean what does one do with an option in music education considering K-12’s have effectively gutted music programs? I guess one can always work at Guitar Center while saddled with a nice student loan debt.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:25 PM
 
Location: The Other California
4,258 posts, read 2,468,065 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargobound View Post
There is certainly nothing to stop the OP and other classical music lovers from donating to CSU Chico to save the program. There becomes a point where the ROI is too low.
Education is subsidized for a reason: ordinary people cannot otherwise afford it. The most expensive component of music education - the infrastructure: buildings, theatres, studios, instruments - is owned and paid for by CSUC. The music community alone cannot replace this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargobound View Post
I mean what does one do with an option in music education considering K-12ís have effectively gutted music programs?
This point is not entirely without merit. But in Chico there is something of a music renaissance going on in the schools, believe it or not. Furthermore, homeschoolers and private schoolers are disproportionately represented among young classical musicians in the area, and I suspect the same is true statewide.
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Old 03-15-2012, 05:37 PM
 
2,458 posts, read 1,964,585 times
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The buildings and tools of the trade might be paid for, but have you went through and looked at what CSUC is paying out in payroll? The payroll of the entire music department is over a million dollars.

The world will always need: Engineers, nurses, farmers, and concrete. These are lean times and it’s time for the music community to put it’s money where its mouth is if they want to save the program.
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Old 03-15-2012, 07:38 PM
 
Location: South of Northern California
358 posts, read 367,815 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fargobound View Post
The world only needs so many recording engineers and the musician side of it is talent driven.
Only to a point. You can't play professionally in a symphony based on talent alone; it takes intensive training, an understanding of music, a knowledge of the repertoire and the history and cultural contexts that birthed it.

The difference between a person who is simply talented and a person who takes that talent and pursues a complete understanding of their art is night and day. I've seen plenty of talented musicians and singers who think that's all they need, and they stagnate after a while and become painfully dull to watch and hear. A pretty sound becomes boring as hell when that's all one has to offer. The person who throws themselves into the interpretation with abandon, who has the knowledge base to fully realize the intent, the meaning, the cultural parameters of the music, is the one who captures the hearts and minds of the audience, and not just their ears. I have a friend who started college as a garage band musician, discovered that music was so much larger than he imagined, and he dove headfirst into the exploration of it. He graduated, then went to Julliard, and is now one of the world's foremost choral composers. He pushes the boundaries of vocal production and creates some of the most fascinating sound pictures you'll ever hear. And he's now on his third virtual choir, created from thousands of videos from individuals all over the world.

Disclaimer: yes, I am a singer, musician and voice actor with a degree in music--emphasis in history, and I am heavily involved in fine arts education as well.

The loss of fine arts programs in California and around the country is heartbreaking. I've invested a lot of my life and my resources--still am--to help shore up arts education in my area and beyond. And that's what it's going to take--the community needs to decide its worth and do something about it. Chico State is suffering the same difficulty every school from kindergarten on up is enduring. L.A. Unified just announced it's cutting its after school music programs. And I'm sure we'll hear of even more arts programs disappearing as time goes on.
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Old 03-16-2012, 09:54 AM
 
Location: Paranoid State
3,069 posts, read 2,584,455 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
... This is a question of what, precisely, constitutes a truly liberal education (meaning "liberal" in the classic sense, not the political sense). Education is nothing if it is not the deliberate pursuit of the Good, the True, and the Beautiful, and toward that end the study of music is indispensable. ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
I suppose the short answer is that one doesn't do with a music education so much as one becomes.
...
WesternPilgrim makes a valid point. There is a distinction between training and education. Training prepares the student for a job & perhaps launches a career. A traditional liberal arts education as originally conceived was designed to enable the student to be a better citizen.

To drive the point home, imagine having a 13 year old daughter. Would you prefer that, in school, she receive Sex Education or would you prefer she receive Sex Training?

Having said that, the notion of a liberal arts education preparing the student to be a better citizen needs to be re-evaluated. This mission was designed in a different era - an era when few citizens went to college and those who did easily became civic leaders. That era exists only in history textbooks. Nowadays, with a college education available to & achieved by a much larger fraction of the population, that historical notion is quaint at best.

Unfortunately, those evaluating the role of a liberal arts education in society are -- surprise -- liberal arts educators. They are gazing into their own belly-buttons and concluding "yes, we still matter."

I believe the time has come to acknowledge that even with a liberal arts education one cannot become a good citizen without job skills -- and I don't mean the oft-quoted "critical thinking" skills. I mean real skills & training to help launch private sector careers where people actually, you know, contribute to GDP.

I'll put my soap box away now.
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