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Old 04-25-2012, 12:53 PM
 
Location: Hills & Hollers of the Aux Arcs
18,702 posts, read 15,315,251 times
Reputation: 16516
Blaming a president for a state's woes is usually about as sensible as this:

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Old 04-25-2012, 01:03 PM
 
Location: San Jose
829 posts, read 1,250,468 times
Reputation: 644
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Dan View Post
And if I were a betting man I would bet quite a bit that if the auto industry was allowed to fail, quite a large number of the now unemployed auto workers from the midwest would head straight to California to start a new life. John Steinbeck all over again. You think unemployment and welfare are high NOW in California? Just let massive layoffs happen back east and see what happens.
Why would they move to one of the most expensive regions of the country, with relatively high unemployment of its own, especially for unskilled laborers? This isn't the California of Steinbeck's era. If any mass unskilled migration were to occur today, it would be to the likes of North Dakota.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Mountain Ranch, CA The heart of Calaveras County
6,032 posts, read 10,944,567 times
Reputation: 4725
Quote:
Originally Posted by ZhugeLiang View Post
That's absurd. Romney is no saint, but he is far greater presidential material than Obama ever was. This isn't even debatable.
Whew, I hope that means we won't have to watch all sorts of debates on TV then.
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Old 04-25-2012, 01:55 PM
 
Location: Athens, GA (via Pittsburgh, PA)
9,560 posts, read 8,069,935 times
Reputation: 8599
Quote:
Originally Posted by maurb View Post
a). CA is the world's 5th largest economy, something PA, Ohio, and Michigan, combined could never be unless(maybe) if you threw New York in the mix too.
The reason I highlighted Pennsylvania is because its economy doesn't really resemble the states that you grouped it in with these days. Economically, it's always most closely resembled New York, not Ohio or Michigan. Furthermore, due to differences in the types of manufacturing in Pennsylvania, plus the timing, rate and thoroughness of its deindustrialization, Pennsylvania's economy has not only remained similar to New York, but now more closely resembles other East Coast states -- Connecticut, Delaware, Maryland, Massachusetts, New Jersey, Rhode Island -- than it does Illinois, Indiana, Michigan or Ohio.

As for California being the world's fifth-largest economy, so what? General Motors was very recently the world's largest automaker, yet you consider them undeserving of survival, claiming that Ford, Toyota, etc. could pick up the slack. Well aren't there 49 other states that can pick up the slack for California if the **** hits the fan? This is exactly what I mean by California having a high opinion of itself: many of its residents feel entitled to greatness and importance. Pennsylvania could climb on a high horse and declare its importance since the United States wouldn't exist if not for the Declaration of Independence and the U.S. Constitution being both drafted and ratified in Philadelphia, but they don't. They know better. They have a sense of perspective that California largely lacks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maurb View Post
b). CA is not the one dimensional economy that PA was before the steel industry collapse, so that's an apples to oranges comparison
Oranges can rot just like apples. Keep up the overbearing taxation and regulation, and pretty soon California will have a no-dimensional economy, unless you count the state government as an industry.


Quote:
Originally Posted by maurb View Post
c). CA is a world class state and always will be. PA will never have the same level of desirability. Pittsburgh might be the current flavor of the month but trust me, that will prove to be fleeting.
We can't always have the most desirable of everything. And just because someplace else isn't as highly desirable as California doesn't mean that it's not desirable. It's like a Lamborghini versus a Corvette. The Lamborghini is more desirable than the Corvette, but the Corvette is still desirable nonetheless, and it's much more accessible than the Lamborghini. Pennsylvania is much more accessible than California is, so it's more likely to capitalize on its desirability even if its degree of desirability is less than California.

As for your "flavor of the month" comment, having an unemployment rate that's been below the national average since December 2006 doesn't exactly seem like a short-term trend to me. In fact, it's now the better part of a decade.




That graph is from December 2011, but the unemployment rate in the Pittsburgh MSA continues to decrease despite a gradually growing labor pool.




In other words, the unemployment rate isn't decreasing because a bunch of people are thundering out of Pittsburgh for other cities. It's happening because of job growth. In 2011, the Pittsburgh MSA added more jobs than any other year since the 1970's.




Also note that the Pittsburgh MSA has added jobs in five of the last six years, and even though 2009 was a bad year for jobs, it does not fully negate the growth in 2006, 2007, 2008, 2010 and 2011 combined. In other words, Pittsburgh is one of the few MSAs in the country to come out ahead since 2006. Net migration has responded in turn.




Outside of the fluky 2003-2006 time period, net migration in the Pittsburgh MSA has risen at a pretty linear pace, from moderately negative in 2000 to moderately positive in 2011. (The 2003-2006 fluke had to do with the housing bubble that occurred virtually everywhere but Pittsburgh, plus the dehubbing of PIT by US Airways in 2003.)

Basically, if you cross-examine all the graphs that I've shown you, you'll see that this is not a fad, but a trend that has been years in the making.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:01 PM
 
2,034 posts, read 1,473,397 times
Reputation: 1472
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gnutella View Post
A couple of things:

1. Pennsylvania was never a major player in the automotive industry regardless of its industrial past. Most of what was manufactured in Pennsylvania was advanced materials -- steel, aluminum, glass, chemicals, etc. Were those used by the automotive industry? Yes, but they were also used by many other manufacturing sectors as well. In terms of finished products like cars and the parts therein, that was the specialty of Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois, primarily. New York was in the same boat as Pennsylvania, specializing in advanced materials. That's why both states lost all their industry first and most thoroughly, and why their economies were inert during the 1990's.

2. Just because something has never happened before in your life doesn't necessarily mean that it cannot, or should not, ever happen. Quite frankly, the mentality of your post is exactly the mentality that states like Pennsylvania had back in the 1970's that resulted in economic collapse a generation ago. Lessons were learned the hard way during the 1970's and 1980's. Pride goeth before destruction, and a haughty spirit before the fall. As a state, California has a very high opinion of itself, and if it's not careful, then it, too, might collapse economically. Nothing lasts forever, whether it be good times in California or bad times in Pennsylvania.
The powdered metals industry cluster of North-Central PA is heavily tied to the automotive industry... and counties like Elk, Clearfield, McKean and Cameron experienced the worst economic shocks in PA during the Great Recession.

But... I agree with your points... especially the post with all the graphs. Every day... more and more people are updating their perception of Pittsburgh.
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,561 posts, read 881,793 times
Reputation: 1278
Yep, once the EPA cleaned up the air, Pittsburgh became livable again... One is constantly reminded of what the air quality used to be though... The old stone work is jet black from the pollution of the past..


You do not need to look further than this forum to find the problem! Few propose solutions, most just complain and place blame via finger pointing...

Maybe, just maybe, we the people should start to pay attention, stop arguing, start listening to one another with an open mind... Propose idea's and so forth.....

As I have stated before, I am not happy with the bailouts of banks and the auto industry.... If this is free market economics, then let it be a free market... Just because banks were greedy and loaned money out to people who should have not gotten loans, caused the housing bubble and crashed it. (Yes thank you President Bush II for deregulating the banking industry...) The auto industry, they made the choice to not design and develop more fuel efficient cars, while German, Japanese manufactures did! Ford was the exception, they did not need bailing out... Should have left them crash and burn IMO...

Fracking... It is not without serious issues... Like groundwater contamination, and 5.x quakes in Oklahoma......

Groundwater contamination in California with serious ground water shortages does not sound too bright.... Unless ones attitude is the hell with tomorrow, lets live for today...
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Old 04-25-2012, 02:37 PM
 
2,312 posts, read 1,539,743 times
Reputation: 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evergrey View Post
The powdered metals industry cluster of North-Central PA is heavily tied to the automotive industry... and counties like Elk, Clearfield, McKean and Cameron experienced the worst economic shocks in PA during the Great Recession.

But... I agree with your points... especially the post with all the graphs. Every day... more and more people are updating their perception of Pittsburgh.
As I recall, Pittsburgh gives quite a lot of incentives for skilled workers/graduate who decide to locate there .. Tax wise .. Property purchase wise (tax implications) ...
In my graduating class, this was a driver.. Growing notoriety of top Universities .. Them starting businesses locally etc...
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Old 04-25-2012, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Athens, GA (via Pittsburgh, PA)
9,560 posts, read 8,069,935 times
Reputation: 8599
Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
Yep, once the EPA cleaned up the air, Pittsburgh became livable again... One is constantly reminded of what the air quality used to be though... The old stone work is jet black from the pollution of the past..
Actually, it was former Pittsburgh mayor David L. Lawrence who got the ball rolling on reducing air pollution. His campaign platform in 1947 was "smoke must go," and he's arguably considered to be Pittsburgh's best mayor. Air pollution was reduced so much during the 1950's and 1960's that there was no need for the EPA to get involved when it was formed in 1970.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
Just because banks were greedy and loaned money out to people who should have not gotten loans, caused the housing bubble and crashed it. (Yes thank you President Bush II for deregulating the banking industry...)
Actually, the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act is what deregulated finance in the United States, and it was enacted in 1999. Somebody had to sign that bill for it to take effect, and that was Bill Clinton. People need to accept the fact that the current economic malaise in the United States was a bipartisan accomplishment, and both political parties are equally to blame, as is everybody who signed on the dotted line for a house they really couldn't afford.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
The auto industry, they made the choice to not design and develop more fuel efficient cars, while German, Japanese manufactures did! Ford was the exception, they did not need bailing out... Should have left them crash and burn IMO...
Actually, Ford just got lucky to run out of cash first. They ran out of cash in 2006 right after Alan Mulally became their new CEO. Credit was still cheap and easy in 2006, and Ford still needed to mortgage virtually its entire business operation in order to secure the largest loan in the history of corporate America. GM knew that they were going to run out of money by the end of 2008, but what they didn't know was that the credit market was going to freeze by the time they needed the loan, hence the loan they got from the U.S. Treasury. (Nobody knew, really.)

As for Chrysler, the "merger" with Daimler was bogus all along. Daimler just wanted Chrysler's cash reserves (all $12B of it), so after they got what they wanted, they just went through the motions for a few years before they started unnecessarily cutting Chrysler to the bone. You know those lousy interiors in Chrysler vehicles released between 2006 and 2008? That was a Daimler mandate. They told Chrysler in 2005 to cut the cost of their interiors by 40%. Oops.

As a result of Daimler's gross mismanagement, Chrysler lost 46% of its market share between 1996 and 2009, and 81% of its net worth as a company between 1998 and 2007. As much as Daimler wants to pretend that it's not their fault, it all is, considering all decisions made beyond 2000 came from Stuttgart. For the record, Chrysler got $11B from the U.S. Treasury, which is less than the $12B they had in cash reserves in 1998. In other words, Chrysler wouldn't have even needed a "bailout" if they still had the cash that they earned themselves before Daimler effectively stole it all.

Now you know the rest of the story. Alan Mulally has been a shrewd CEO for Ford, but their saving grace was the amount of time they had to reverse course before the credit crunch. It also helped that they weren't ass-****ed by Germans for nine years the way Chrysler was. As for GM, they do deserve criticism for waiting until the last minute to help themselves, but again, nobody knew that credit would be impossible to get in 2008 when they ran out of money, two years after Ford did.

Lastly -- and this is what far too many people don't understand -- foreign automakers don't play by our rules in the first place. They're all heavily subsidized by their national governments, and then they get further subsidies from the ass-kissing Southern politicians who don't know the difference between legitimate capitalism and corporate socialism. Southern states use taxpayer money to build plants for foreign automakers, but what if the automaker has to close the plant? Guess who gets stuck with the bill. (HINT: It ain't the automakers.)

So there's your "superior business model" that Sens. Larry Corker and Richard Shelby kept talking about: subsidies up the ass! Let the government take the risk while the automaker reaps the reward! It's like a perpetual bailout for foreign automakers, versus the temporary one that GM and Chrysler got. Oh yeah, and GM and Chrysler still pay federal taxes, unlike many other large corporations in the United States.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TrueTimbers View Post
Fracking... It is not without serious issues... Like groundwater contamination, and 5.x quakes in Oklahoma......
A chemical company in -- guess where! -- Pennsylvania has developed a method of effectively treating and purifying water that has been used in the fracking process. It's a chemical that binds with those in the water and forms a solid, almost wax-like residue that separates itself from the water and makes it safe and potable again. It's perfectly possible for the fracking process to have a limited environmental impact.


Quote:
Originally Posted by yeahthatguy View Post
As I recall, Pittsburgh gives quite a lot of incentives for skilled workers/graduate who decide to locate there .. Tax wise .. Property purchase wise (tax implications) ...
In my graduating class, this was a driver.. Growing notoriety of top Universities .. Them starting businesses locally etc...
That's a statewide program. They call them "Keystone Opportunity Zones," which is where you get a tax abatement if you develop on former brownfield sites or in economically-depressed communities.
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Old 04-25-2012, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,561 posts, read 881,793 times
Reputation: 1278
Thank you for the educational response Gnutella..

Indeed foreign manufactures are heavily subsidised..... and yes, finger pointing is counter productive... both parties deregulated the banks, enacted the patriot act and on and on with things that displease me...

By the way ...IMO Pittsburg is one of the most aesthetically pleasing cities in America... Love the sight as you come through the tunnel into town...
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Old 04-26-2012, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
3,542 posts, read 2,652,137 times
Reputation: 3599
Quote:
Originally Posted by .highnlite View Post
I have found it curious that Conservatives frequently refer to him as the Messiah.
Only in a scornful sarcastic manner. They are mocking the liberals belief that he is some kind of a savior. One of the commentators, Hannity I believe, has often referred to Obama as The Annointed One, again in a scornful way.
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