Brain drain: even college students are fleeing California (San Diego, Berkeley: colleges, costs)

[Fontucky]

Says the hypocrite who referred to CSU students as "barbarians."

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

"...run-of-the-mill CSU-type barbarians?" Do you mean all the home-grown Asian students who get top SAT scores and represent the majority of in-state admissions?

Home-grown Asian students with top SAT scores represent the majority of in-state CSU admissions? You've got to be joking. Source, please.

[.highnlite]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Home-grown Asian students with top SAT scores represent the majority of in-state CSU admissions? You've got to be joking. Source, please.

Neat job of sidestepping his question, are you a politician?

[DynamoLA]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Still, I think it likely for a number of reasons that Californians who leave the state for college are not your run-of-the-mill CSU-type barbarians. They're on the higher end of the CSU curve, though perhaps not quite UC material. They're not going to be the ones affected by the cuts: they're well-qualified, determined, and from families committed to their success.

The person they quoted in the article couldn't even get into San Diego State and went to Arizona State instead.

At this point you are just making stuff up.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Students who don't qualify for the top tier of the CSU system can opt for the top tier in out-of-state schools, rather than accept a place in 2nd-tier CA schools.

True, but that has always been the case. The question is why more seem to be opting for out-of-state schools today than, say, ten years ago.

Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth

Not long after Proposition 13 passed, Berkeley, for one, began to substitute faculty with grad student teaching-assistants in their survey courses, and encouraged tenured faculty to retire early, replacing them with newly-minted PhD's, among other cost-cutting measures. So the quality of undergraduate instruction has suffered. Students may be choosing schools in other states, where they can get more faculty time for themselves.

Agreed. I'm sure that's a part of the mix. The bottom line is that all of these students will have begun to make a home for themselves out of state, with fewer incentives to return.

Inertia is the default position of human nature.

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by DynamoLA

The person they quoted in the article couldn't even get into San Diego State and went to Arizona State instead.

At this point you are just making stuff up.

Because the one person quoted in the article qualifies as the norm? Take a class in statistics.

[DynamoLA]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

Because the one person quoted in the article qualifies as the norm? Take a class in statistics.

Quoting one person is a better "statistic" than saying things like "I think it likely for a number of reasons that Californians who leave the state for college are not your run-of-the-mill CSU-type barbarians."

Way to make stuff up (again).

"Oh no, Arizona State is taking our best and brightest"...

[WesternPilgrim]

Originally Posted by DynamoLA

Quoting one person is a better "statistic" than saying things like "I think it likely for a number of reasons that Californians who leave the state for college are not your run-of-the-mill CSU-type barbarians."

Way to make stuff up (again).

"Oh no, Arizona State is taking our best and brightest"...

I have expressed an opinion that I think is intuitively reasonable. You don't agree? Then offer a counter-opinion with reasons.

Here are my reasons:

1. Going out of state for college is an additional hardship logistically, financially, and socially. It requires a higher level of motivation and commitment on the part of the student and his or her family. That higher level motivation correlates - not always, but more often than not - with higher quality students.

2. Bright students with bright futures are being encouraged by their families to leave the state. How do I know this? Anecdotally.

3. The best jobs are out of state, and local graduates have a better chance at landing local jobs. It makes sense for those seeking high paying careers to attend college where the jobs are.

4. On the UC side, as Ruth4Truth pointed out, the quality of education has suffered due to internal structural changes - the trend toward graduate students replacing professors in the classroom. Students may be leaving the state systems for reasons of quality.

So I have expressed an opinion, with reasons to support it. If you disagree, fire away and tell me why.

[.highnlite]

...

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

I have expressed an opinion that I think is intuitively reasonable. You don't agree? Then offer a counter-opinion with reasons.

Here are my reasons:(he does it again)

1. Going out of state for college is an additional hardship logistically, financially, and socially. It requires a higher level of motivation and commitment on the part of the student and his or her family. That higher level motivation correlates - not always, but more often than not - with higher quality students. Not necessarily as I demonstrated

2. Bright students with bright futures are being encouraged by their families to leave the state. How do I know this? Anecdotally. It would be interesting if a million families did this rather than the couple you know of

3. The best jobs are out of state, and local graduates have a better chance at landing local jobs. It makes sense for those seeking high paying careers to attend college where the jobs are.

Not at all, the best jobs are where the best jobs are, where they are depends on what they are, it makes sense to attend college where their education is good, for instance, there may be high paying jobs in Las Vegas, but "no bright student with a bright future" should attend University of Nevada at Las Vegas.

4. On the UC side, as Ruth4Truth pointed out, the quality of education has suffered due to internal structural changes - the trend toward graduate students replacing professors in the classroom. Students may be leaving the state systems for reasons of quality.

that "trend" is 60 or 70 years old, state universities that I know of seldom have grad students teaching.

So I have expressed an opinion, with reasons to support it. If you disagree, fire away and tell me why.

I just did, you seem to inhabit a parallel universe, similar to ours, but all screwed up.

[tollfree]

Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim

It's much more than that. Some of these students are paying out-of-state tuition. That means they're on the serious side, the cream of the crop. And students who leave the state for college are always less likely to return.

That's not true, I went to Univ of Iowa, and a significant percent were from Chicago (mainly Chicago suburbs). The majority (over 90%) of them returned back home after college.