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Old 05-09-2012, 10:16 AM
 
Location: The Other California
4,258 posts, read 2,468,065 times
Reputation: 1478

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Dan View Post
I do believe they were. Chumash Indians. Under the whip of Junipero Serra. Under the guise of "civilizing the savages."
Slavery was forbidden not only by the Catholic Church but also by the laws of Spain. All the mission Indians freely accepted baptism and the obligations of the community to which they belonged. It wasn't slavery: words mean things.

However, we would consider their situation today as a form of indentured servitude, which was common throughout Europe and by no means unique to the California missions. Once they joined the missions and accepted the authority of padres, they were not free to leave and do whatever they liked. There were certainly abuses, but they were the exception and not the rule. Most were happy to remain in the missions.

 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:22 AM
 
3,459 posts, read 5,627,846 times
Reputation: 2332
Quote:
Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
Clearly not if you have to ridicule other's beliefs because you don't happen to share them. Lack of sophistication is the least of it.
^ This.
 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,789 posts, read 1,056,374 times
Reputation: 1430
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeauCharles View Post
I hate to see vandalism of any public place be it churches, schools, city parks - there's even graffiti happening in wilderness areas and state parks now.

Graffiti creeps into California parks

Its sickening.

I know! Vandalism in MY Church...... Almost as bad as all the folks continuing to rape and pillage mother earth in an unsustainable way to line their pockets with filthy money... The do it legally, they desecrate spiritual ground, they have since they came and stole it from my people, took them away from what they knew, broke their will, enslaved them.
Talk about a lack of respect and desecration... Wow....
 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,257 posts, read 11,318,602 times
Reputation: 9755
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Slavery was forbidden not only by the Catholic Church but also by the laws of Spain. All the mission Indians freely accepted baptism and the obligations of the community to which they belonged. It wasn't slavery: words mean things.

However, we would consider their situation today as a form of indentured servitude, which was common throughout Europe and by no means unique to the California missions. Once they joined the missions and accepted the authority of padres, they were not free to leave and do whatever they liked. There were certainly abuses, but they were the exception and not the rule. Most were happy to remain in the missions.
Yes! Of course! What the hell was I thinking? The Indians were just thrilled to work for no compensation. Thrilled to give up thier best lands for no compensation. Thrilled to give up thier traditions and beliefs. Thrilled to die from European diseases. "Accepted the authority of the Padres?" "Submit you savages! Or else!" Man WP!! Religion has really got you by the cojones!! Slavery by any other name is still slavery!! Oh! Thats right! Your Bible says slaves should be good slaves!!
 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:45 AM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,418,170 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by Capt. Dan View Post
Man WP!! Religion has really got you by the cojones!!
Cojones? What cojones? We don't need no stinkin' cojones! We have Doctrine!
 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:51 AM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,257 posts, read 11,318,602 times
Reputation: 9755
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Cojones? What cojones? We don't need no stinkin' cojones! We have Doctrine!
The Conspiracy Doctrine?
 
Old 05-09-2012, 10:56 AM
 
Location: Earth
12,006 posts, read 13,504,039 times
Reputation: 4119
Vandalizing a church is pretty messed up.

Do people think they're living in 1930s Spain or something?
 
Old 05-09-2012, 12:06 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 3,531,368 times
Reputation: 2622
they were indeed enslaved, and the young women were frequently the target of abuse by the soldiers detailed to the missions to keep the indios inline. Think about this Western Pilgrim, if the indios were not slaves, why were soldiers at the religious establishments to keep the indios from running away.

Capt Dan, Chumash on the Central Coast, up in Monterey and Santa Cruz a different group.

The living conditions the Padres imposed on the indios resulted in mass deaths, no way around it.

Think about this too, it was thought at the time that when the missions were secularized by the Mexican Republic that the indios would continue to work at the missions which were to be theirs.

Didn't happen, as soon as the soldiers pulled out the indios bailed. No longer able to live the old way, and uninterested, some say incapable of living the new way, they hung out on the edges of what towns existed. Living on garbage and Aguardiente, the most of the few who survived the onslaught of the Padres, died, drunk in the garbage heaps on the edge of town.

The Missions and Padres were to the Indios, a holocaust. Except that Hitler only killed about 2/3rds of the Jews, the Padres killed up to 90% of the Indios.
 
Old 05-10-2012, 06:35 AM
 
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,257 posts, read 11,318,602 times
Reputation: 9755
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post
Slavery was forbidden not only by the Catholic Church but also by the laws of Spain. All the mission Indians freely accepted baptism and the obligations of the community to which they belonged. It wasn't slavery: words mean things.

However, we would consider their situation today as a form of indentured servitude, which was common throughout Europe and by no means unique to the California missions. Once they joined the missions and accepted the authority of padres, they were not free to leave and do whatever they liked. There were certainly abuses, but they were the exception and not the rule. Most were happy to remain in the missions.
WP--I'm amazed at your apparent naivete ie;Slavery was forbidden by the Catholic Church. I think I can safely assume that priests diddling little boys was forbidden by Rome also??
 
Old 05-10-2012, 11:07 AM
 
214 posts, read 311,418 times
Reputation: 214
This graffiti was made by slaves.
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