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Old 05-12-2012, 01:28 PM
 
Location: GLAMA
16,591 posts, read 18,434,593 times
Reputation: 15983
I'll go with natives. As in the case of the Tongva and the Acajeman people, the simple life of living off the land and the sea, taking only what they needed, sounds like a very civilized existence to me. They even treated the firstrpaleface explorers peacefully and respectfully.* YMMV.

*initially, at least... until the palefaces showed their true colors

 
Old 05-12-2012, 01:33 PM
 
Location: GLAMA
16,591 posts, read 18,434,593 times
Reputation: 15983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
And as such you reap the benefits by living on ancestral aborignal lands that were stolen. Care to donate it to the local tribe?

Meet the new boss same as the old boss.
You are an excuse-maker extraordinaire for that religion that you claim no association with.

Can't undo the past. The local tribe (or what passes for them) are doing fine, just off I-10 in Cabazon. I'm sure they wouldn't need this sun-blasted piece of flat valley floor. It's MINE, baybeeee.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 01:51 PM
 
19,122 posts, read 11,157,692 times
Reputation: 16150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fontucky View Post
You are an excuse-maker extraordinaire for that religion that you claim no association with.

Can't undo the past. The local tribe (or what passes for them) are doing fine, just off I-10 in Cabazon. I'm sure they wouldn't need this sun-blasted piece of flat valley floor. It's MINE, baybeeee.
Care to provide examples of your fabrication? That's okay you won't find any.

As for the second part your excuse for disingenuous sympathy and outrage were expected.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 02:11 PM
 
Location: San Luis Obispo and Santa Barbara Counties
6,390 posts, read 2,853,468 times
Reputation: 2622
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCalifornianWriter View Post
Don't change the subject for your own means, Fontucky. You cannot deny that all Natives were basically savages, completely unfamiliar with either Faith or Science. They would have to be changed/educated for the purposes of colonization someday...might as well have been then.
Holy Mackeral, Savages? The California indians existed pretty much without warfare, unlike the so called civilized Euros.

As for Faith, there are thousands of temples used by the "savages" scattered throughout California. My kind of churches, no roofs. The spiritual life of the California indians was profoundly deep, and of course considered satanic and destroyed by the the Civilized Friars.

I have to admit, reading through these various threads on the missions and the California indians. I think some of these posters just make stuff up to rationalize the unrationalizeable.

Bizarrre.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 02:27 PM
 
Location: GLAMA
16,591 posts, read 18,434,593 times
Reputation: 15983
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
Care to provide examples of your fabrication? That's okay you won't find any.
Good, because I wasn't planning on looking. I do have a semblance of a life remaining, however lame it may be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
As for the second part your excuse for disingenuous sympathy and outrage were expected.
The truth usually is expected, however bitter a pill it may be to swallow. You'll get used to it.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 02:44 PM
 
7,154 posts, read 3,722,455 times
Reputation: 3806
Living now on the Indian tribes' former land?

Uh, not.

Those terribly 'uncivilized' savages didn't understand the concept of 'ownership' ... especially of land. They weren't into possessions -- unlike we 'civilized' folks today.

Do I call "hunter-gatherer tribes" "civilized"? And specifically more so than our own culture in modern times?
Boy oh boy ... I sure do!

Why those cultures worked like ours NEVER will:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number
 
Old 05-12-2012, 02:47 PM
 
19,122 posts, read 11,157,692 times
Reputation: 16150
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fontucky View Post
Good, because I wasn't planning on looking. I do have a semblance of a life remaining, however lame it may be.



The truth usually is expected, however bitter a pill it may be to swallow. You'll get used to it.
Based on your posts and some pics it looks like you have a nice life.

I have always tended to the savory and pungent.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 02:51 PM
 
Location: Guangzhou, China
7,887 posts, read 5,639,136 times
Reputation: 8091
Quote:
Originally Posted by WesternPilgrim View Post

Sad, though. It used to be you could just walk into a Catholic church, at any time, and say your prayers or just sit and rest. Even the bad guys had respect for a church. There is no fear of God anymore.
Well, that's because it's increasingly clear to many that there is no god, at least not in the traditional god-fearing sense... fear of god is bad, and I'm glad that it's on the decline in the better parts of America and the world.

In any case, this was a horrible act, really disgusting. I wouldn't ever seek to deride or subjugate anyone's religion, and respect the role it plays in many peoples' lives, though I simply can't and won't join them in their faith.

I don't care to get into arguments about slavery, about ownership, about conquests - all these things happened long before my time and don't enter the orbit of my life.

I'd like to see the culprits punished harshly.
 
Old 05-12-2012, 08:14 PM
 
Location: Quimper Peninsula
1,487 posts, read 782,123 times
Reputation: 1202
Nice debate highnlight and curmudegeon! Love it when people can have different viewpoints and remains civil...

Wow this is crazy... I can not dive in as deep as I would like too... But just can not resist a few comments...

Fearing god: I am not god fearing... If I had Pilgrims god, maybe I would fear it!! Me not being god fearing, should have nothing to do with anything, other than my belief structure is different... I simple feel that the idea of a present, or watching, active "god" is utterly silly... Praying is to yourself, god is energy within us.. If one even needs to label it.. I surely do not think of that sense or emotion of spirituality as "god".

Savage aboriginal: Wow.... That about floors me... People who were much more civilized for longer than Europeans... Savage?

I am strongly opposed to proselytizing, missions to convert people to X religion, and break them of their tradition... IMO it is one of the most despicable evil things done in human history... It is nothing short of Genocide!

Europeans broke the back of strong proud peoples all around the world... NONE of those people are better off today than before the Europeans converted them... Broke them of being Savage.... Europeans destroyed the Inca empire! Every aboriginal nation in the USA is suffering.... Thank goodness for Casino's to at least give some of the tribes enough money to take care of their people, living confused and in disarray... How anyone can think what Europeans did to the aboriginal was good is beyond me... Way way way beyond me.... Have those of you that think it was good spent any time with the people???
 
Old 05-12-2012, 10:46 PM
 
Location: South of Northern California
354 posts, read 320,359 times
Reputation: 218
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheCalifornianWriter View Post
Don't change the subject for your own means, Fontucky. You cannot deny that all Natives were basically savages, completely unfamiliar with either Faith or Science. They would have to be changed/educated for the purposes of colonization someday...might as well have been then.
And cue me rolling my eyes in three...two...one...are you kidding me?

Irrigation, selective breeding of crops, snowshoes, astronomy...the list goes on...

Democratically elected central government centuries before Europeans figured it out. Women voting. The leaders of the women's suffrage movement met frequently with the women of the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois) nations because of their centuries-old rights to both vote a guy into office and recall him if he wasn't doing a good job. We owe the structure of our Federal government in part to the Haudenosaunee Confederacy.

The first colonists would have died out the first winter because of their ineptitude had the Indians not taught them decent farming skills.

The branding of the indigenous peoples of North and South America as nothing more than a step above cavemen is based on only one thing--five hundred years of wanting what they had. Land, gold, labor.
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