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Old 05-15-2012, 09:08 AM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,137,300 times
Reputation: 3806
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
California is also susceptible to a refinery capacity shortage. None of us wants an oil refinery in our backyard, so no new refineries are being built here.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Nobel prize winning physicist Dr. Steven Chu said back in 2008:

President Obama liked this & appointed Dr. Chu to his cabinet to be Secretary of Energy. Dr. Chu, now part of the administration, says he has changed his view.

But clearly this administration has actions and has words. Actions speak louder than words.
Except none of these things has anything to do with why California prices alone are jumping suddenly now. They are jumping suddenly now because some people have been making better deals for the refinery capacity / inventory that affects this state. And there is no regulation to moderate that effect.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:14 AM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,137,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
Sure, the government and the people that keep voting it in.

Anyhow, traders don't have weekly meetings where they all decide to act in unison. For every trader betting oil is going to increase, you have another doing the opposite. Now, whether certain large groups can manipulate the futures markets....well that is possible. But they are manipulating derivatives, not the spot prices which are determined by supply/demand. As I keep saying, there is a poor understanding of how swings in derivatives (speculators are buying derivatives, not actual oil) effect spot prices which should be, at least in principle, determined by supply/demand. There are some ideas on both sides, but no agreement.

But hey, blaming everything on speculators is a lot easier than facing the truth....
One last time: I don't disagree with much that you are saying.

Correct. It is not a conspiracy behind closed doors. It is pure opportunism, legally engaged in by a certain class of social parasite. The game of betting for and betting against results in huge effects in costs for society in general. It is not conspiratorial, but it has an effect that is quite entirely similar.

That is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
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Old 05-15-2012, 09:40 AM
 
Location: Bothell, Washington
2,269 posts, read 2,082,581 times
Reputation: 2875
You guys down there in CA are not alone in this misery, up here in Washington we are having the same problem. Prices have spiked 20 cents in most areas just in the last week or so, with most stations around $4.29- $4.39. The highest prices of the year, while the rest of the nation sinks down 40-50 cents from the highs they experienced a couple months ago. The excuse our local media has is the same refinery issues that some of you have mentioned.
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Old 05-15-2012, 10:50 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
3,586 posts, read 2,720,629 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
And, by all means, let's just continue to use cheap, non-renewable, grossly polluting energy --
Right on! Drill baby, drill!
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:05 PM
 
Location: In Transition
1,304 posts, read 865,694 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Except none of these things has anything to do with why California prices alone are jumping suddenly now. They are jumping suddenly now because some people have been making better deals for the refinery capacity / inventory that affects this state.
Verifiable proof? (don't post a link to some green blog)

I keep seeing this explanation, but this is just conjecture repeated through tons of blogs / posts / etc which elevates it to "truth". I don't see quantifiable evidence that this is happening.

Also this still does not explain the differential between CA gas prices and many other state within the last week or so.
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:10 PM
 
880 posts, read 554,819 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jkbatca View Post
Verifiable proof? (don't post a link to some green blog)

I keep seeing this explanation, but this is just conjecture repeated through tons of blogs / posts / etc which elevates it to "truth". I don't see quantifiable evidence that this is happening.

Also this still does not explain the differential between CA gas prices and many other state within the last week or so.
Prices here in TN dropped 0.20 in two days. Now $3.38 regular.

Good for us but .... as for CA
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Old 05-15-2012, 01:52 PM
Status: "Grains....Grains" (set 4 days ago)
 
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
12,312 posts, read 10,201,200 times
Reputation: 4038
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
... I was / am referring to policies since the Reagan - era at the furthest past.
You asked a question, and I answered. You said nothing about "since Reagan"... Obviously, starting with Reagan you started to see the successful depression era policies removed one by one......all with the support of Joe Six Pack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
.
Except the part about there being no understanding of what drives oil and gas prices. That is known. But keep huffing.
I said that there is a poor understanding of how speculation in the derivative markets effects the spot prices for the underlying commodities. There is no agreement on this topic....none at all. Now, there are all sorts of models on how increased global demand will effect global oil prices...but that is a different issue.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
I do not have the slightest respect for people who make money by inserting themselves in other peoples' labors only at the level of leveraging and collecting middle-man fees. They are parasites without symbiotic labor.
I'm thinking you don't have a good understanding of what traders, etc do.... It has little to do with collecting "middle-man fees"...not to mention there are "middle-men" throughout the economy (e.g., sales reps, wholesalers, etc) that have nothing to do with finance. Are middle-men only a problem when the underlying product is financial in nature?

Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
They, like everything else we do ARE arms of the financial system now.
In what sense?
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Old 05-15-2012, 02:30 PM
 
7,151 posts, read 4,137,300 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by user_id View Post
I'm thinking you don't have a good understanding of what traders, etc do.... It has little to do with collecting "middle-man fees"...not to mention there are "middle-men" throughout the economy (e.g., sales reps, wholesalers, etc) that have nothing to do with finance. Are middle-men only a problem when the underlying product is financial in nature?
I have an absolutely perfect understanding of what traders do ... And it's not work ... it is worthless except to themselves, and succubant to others whose labors they thrive on ... Yes, that's a slight exaggeration but only if you value the ridiculous industrial / consumer culture we live in. I don't. Traders are manipulative leeches. They make they world go round? They certainly do. God help me, I'd be happy getting off at the next stop.

Are they a problem only when the underlying product is financial in nature? Well, first off, pretty much everything in our culture is now financially based. So yes. They are a problem in everything. Anyway, yes, middle men traders are a culture of leeches in everything they insert themselves into, regardless of how one defines the underlying product as financial or not.

Yep. I only value dirt and blood and sweat. But, contrary to what you might assume, no, not too much of it. I don't operate under the belief that man is only worthy in endless labor. Frankly, we should all do as little as possible to maintain only our basic needs. All else is destructively superfluous. The true ways of the natural world are not found in obsessive labor.
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Old 05-15-2012, 04:30 PM
 
Location: Santa Monica, CA
1,291 posts, read 1,374,033 times
Reputation: 537
Quote:
Originally Posted by Leonard64 View Post
Prices here in TN dropped 0.20 in two days. Now $3.38 regular.
Even though I work from home, and gas prices don't really affect me, it still annoys me how much more we pay for gas in CA. I filled up last week for $4.09/gal. Several days later in Irvine I noticed regular was $4.55/gal and was like when did that happen?
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Old 05-15-2012, 07:27 PM
 
731 posts, read 1,124,577 times
Reputation: 395
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dunbar42 View Post
Even though I work from home, and gas prices don't really affect me, it still annoys me how much more we pay for gas in CA. I filled up last week for $4.09/gal. Several days later in Irvine I noticed regular was $4.55/gal and was like when did that happen?
$3.37 here today and with my value card discount (from the supermarket) I just paid $3.22 a gallon. CA does have higher formulation costs as CA gas is different than in the rest of the US and that accounts for about $0.40 a gallon. Oh and lower gas mileage as well. The difference now may well be speculators driving the price up the same as occurs on the world market. Don't know and they aren't doing it here where I live.
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