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Old 07-10-2012, 10:07 AM
Status: "Happy Chris Day" (set 3 days ago)
 
20,147 posts, read 12,575,301 times
Reputation: 17169
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
It's because you're an outdoors person. Somehow I'm not too surprised that you somewhat agree. You're also right that people are just irresponsible. Those getting sick from reusable bags are idiots for thinking they'd never have to wash them.
I can agree with most of that statement.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:12 AM
Status: "Happy Chris Day" (set 3 days ago)
 
20,147 posts, read 12,575,301 times
Reputation: 17169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyTXsmile View Post
I have devoted the majority of my life (since age 12) to assisting the environment from my lifestyle, to teaching others, to beginning programs in schools and communities, to devoting more hours most people work during a typical work week to environmental charities, etc.

What have I learned from all of this? The only way to not have an impact on the environment is to not be alive. Plain and simple. I don't plan on jumping off a bridge to save the world, so I guess I'm just going to have to damage the earth in some way by breathing, eating, walking, having a roof, etc.

As for the specific topic of bags, until the city doesn't require us to place our trash in plastic bags for trash collection, and until I'm not required to pick up dog poo at the county park, I just don't see how one can rule out plastic bags.

If you're not using the free plastic bags you get from buying groceries to put your trash and dog poo in, you're buying plastic bags to put your trash and dog poo in. What's the difference?

I'll tell you. The store is paying for the bags now. After the ban, the consumer is paying for the bags. Either way, they're ending up in the landfills until the State says we can place our trash right in the trash can not in a plastic bag. That's where legislation should be changed, in my opinion.

(And, yes, I do use reusable bags, but only if my pile of free bags is growing larger than I could use for trash/dog poo for that week.)
We dont have to put our trash into plastic bags before tossing into trash cans where I live. I haven't heard of that before. Or maybe I am reading this wrong.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:15 AM
 
Location: California / Maryland / Cape May
1,548 posts, read 1,219,334 times
Reputation: 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
We dont have to put our trash into plastic bags before tossing into trash cans where I live. I haven't heard of that before. Or maybe I am reading this wrong.
In my county (and about a dozen others I've lived in across the country), we do. Only one county so far that I've lived in didn't require that trash be in bags.

So glad to hear your neighborhood is doing it the right way, though.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:20 AM
Status: "Happy Chris Day" (set 3 days ago)
 
20,147 posts, read 12,575,301 times
Reputation: 17169
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyTXsmile View Post
In my county (and about a dozen others I've lived in) we do. Only one so far that I've lived in didn't require that trash be in bags.

So glad to hear your neighborhood is doing it the right way, though.
Well I don't know if it's the "right" way. However, I can see that if the trash is in bags it will keep it more contained, less likely to fly away and create more litter. I've worked at a landfill and trash that comes in bagged creates less mess than trash that isnt.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:33 AM
 
Location: California / Maryland / Cape May
1,548 posts, read 1,219,334 times
Reputation: 1202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogdad View Post
Well I don't know if it's the "right" way. However, I can see that if the trash is in bags it will keep it more contained, less likely to fly away and create more litter. I've worked at a landfill and trash that comes in bagged creates less mess than trash that isnt.
Exactly. I can see the need for bags as it keeps stray trash for ending up in the Bay, etc. but at the same time, you're putting a bag in the landfill. Which is worse? (I don't think there's a right or wrong answer to that rhetorical question as both are bad, which gets back to my original point, the only way to not have an effect on the environment is to not be alive).

At the end of the day, each of us needs to do what we can, when we can, and know that we did the best we could do, given the circumstances.

ADDED:
And to those that say just put the trash in a paper bag... have you ever done that only to have it rain and your trash is now all over the alley? Not a good option either.
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Old 07-10-2012, 10:44 AM
 
Location: In them thar hills
7,882 posts, read 9,568,337 times
Reputation: 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyTXsmile View Post
I have devoted the majority of my life (since age 11/12) to assisting the environment from my lifestyle, to teaching others, to beginning programs in schools and communities, to devoting more hours most people work during a typical work week to environmental charities, etc.

What have I learned from all of this? The only way to not have an impact on the environment is to not be alive. Plain and simple. I don't plan on jumping off a bridge to save the world, so I guess I'm just going to have to damage the earth in some way by breathing, eating, walking, having a roof, etc.

As for the specific topic of bags, until the city doesn't require us to place our trash in plastic bags for trash collection, and until I'm not required to pick up dog poo at the county park (which would also be bad for the environment due to the bacteria it would cause in run off), I just don't see how one can rule out plastic bags.

If you're not using the free plastic bags you get from buying groceries to put your trash and dog poo in, you're buying plastic bags to put your trash and dog poo in. What's the difference?

I'll tell you. The store is paying for the bags now. After the ban, the consumer is paying for the bags. Either way, they're ending up in the landfills until the State says we can place our trash right in the trash can not in a plastic bag. That's where legislation should be changed, in my opinion.

(And, yes, I don't take a bag when I can fit the item in my purse, and I do use reusable bags if my pile of free bags is growing larger than I could use for trash/dog poo for that week. And I reuse paper bags until the bottom busts out, or I'll decorate them and use them as fun wrapping paper, etc. NOTHING gets wasted in my house.)
^ This.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:02 AM
 
Location: In them thar hills
7,882 posts, read 9,568,337 times
Reputation: 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Youse guys obviously aren't sailors ... nor live on or by beaches. I am. I do.
Me too. Also, dive, surf, swim.

Quote:

And America is the number one source by far.
Data please.

Quote:
Regardless of environmental laws the bags end up tossed around outside of "refuse disposal systems" by the hundreds of billions.
See the deposit idea described elsewhere. I could go with a deposit for both plastic and paper but a ban on plastic is too much.

Quote:
"Bigger fish to fry"? Bigger than your children's future?
Data on actual broad impacts please (not anecdotes about individual tear jerking bad cases).


Quote:
I see. So while you are frying the Big Fish, it's too much trouble to work with a reusable bag?
I could care less about what sort of bag I use to carry things I buy. However, I know there are people not as fortunate as me who care a lot.

Quote:

Americans are entitled to trash the world because it's easier than washing a cloth bag with your laundry? Can't be bothered?
Where is the definitive life cycle data proving North Americans' refuse is the primary or even is a significant contributor to marine refuse issues? How about the Chinese garbage barges dumping with abandon?

Quote:
Here's some facts for you to reconsider:
about 100 billion polyethylene plastic bags are thrown away each year in America alone
Interesting figure but says nothing about the life cycle. Thrown away alone, thrown away filled with other refuse as a substitute for store bought "garbage bags?" Show me the data!

Quote:
between 500 billion and a trillion plastic bags are consumed worldwide each year.
Same here. Where are the life cycle data?

Quote:
8.7 plastic checkout bags contain enough embodied petroleum energy to drive a car 1 kilometre
So what? That is a material selection choice driven by cost and ROI. If oil were too expensive there would be a different selection.

Quote:
fewer than 1% of bags are recycled
What percent are reused. And what measures have been taken to validate these data? Life cycle studies made by unbiased groups are the only way.

Quote:
plastic trash kills over 1 million sea creatures of various kinds every year
Data please.

Quote:

Plastic bags are often mistaken as food by marine mammals.
True that the may be mistaken as food. As for how often, data please.

Quote:

100,000 marine mammals die yearly by eating plastic bags.
Data please.

Quote:

These animals suffer a painful death, the plastic wraps around their intestines or they choke to death.
True enough.

The closing comment is, as with all EIRs, risks need to be quantified. Nice tear jerking bambi stories about individual incidents won't fly. Frequency, severity and mitigation are key factors and without a true understanding of the technical aspects of the issue, these sorts of things become nothing more than an emotional fencing match. A sad aspect regarding modern treatment of environmental issues has been that the scientific method has fallen by the wayside meanwhile mass marketing of emotional "proof points" by environmental advocacy groups drives action more than real data and facts.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:15 AM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,411 posts, read 10,389,767 times
Reputation: 5954
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Me too. Also, dive, surf, swim.



Data please.



See the deposit idea described elsewhere. I could go with a deposit for both plastic and paper but a ban on plastic is too much.



Data on actual broad impacts please (not anecdotes about individual tear jerking bad cases).




I could care less about what sort of bag I use to carry things I buy. However, I know there are people not as fortunate as me who care a lot.



Where is the definitive life cycle data proving North Americans' refuse is the primary or even is a significant contributor to marine refuse issues? How about the Chinese garbage barges dumping with abandon?



Interesting figure but says nothing about the life cycle. Thrown away alone, thrown away filled with other refuse as a substitute for store bought "garbage bags?" Show me the data!



Same here. Where are the life cycle data?



So what? That is a material selection choice driven by cost and ROI. If oil were too expensive there would be a different selection.



What percent are reused. And what measures have been taken to validate these data? Life cycle studies made by unbiased groups are the only way.



Data please.



True that the may be mistaken as food. As for how often, data please.



Data please.



True enough.

The closing comment is, as with all EIRs, risks need to be quantified. Nice tear jerking bambi stories about individual incidents won't fly. Frequency, severity and mitigation are key factors and without a true understanding of the technical aspects of the issue, these sorts of things become nothing more than an emotional fencing match. A sad aspect regarding modern treatment of environmental issues has been that the scientific method has fallen by the wayside meanwhile mass marketing of emotional "proof points" by environmental advocacy groups drives action more than real data and facts.
I cannot comment on most of this. As far as it's impacts on animals, all you have to do is volunteer at an animal rescue facility of some sort. Larger ones like Sea World have entire labs dedicated to rehab caused by man made garbage. Don't take anyones word for it, volunteer somewhere and see it for yourself.
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Old 07-10-2012, 11:21 AM
 
Location: In them thar hills
7,882 posts, read 9,568,337 times
Reputation: 4009
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
all you have to do is volunteer at an animal rescue facility of some sort.
Been there, done that.
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Old 07-10-2012, 12:05 PM
 
Location: West Coast Wanderer
12,411 posts, read 10,389,767 times
Reputation: 5954
Quote:
Originally Posted by BayAreaHillbilly View Post
Been there, done that.
And you still don't see the impact? Where did you volunteer Mars???
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