California Foreclosure Rate Highest in the Nation (Freedom: rent, house)

[leonard]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Let's ask: So what responsibility does a person have, who is educated in his product / service, and operating in a capacity of trust as an advisor, to represent that product / service with honesty and integrity when accepting cash for his services?

What responsibility does a teacher have as an educator?
Psychologist, social worker, clergy as counselors?
Lawyers and accountants as representatives?
Doctors as diagnosticians and therapists and prescribers?

When the above abuse their positions of trust for personal gain, how does society -- and the law -- treat them?

Hey, fine and jail them all. If they act knowingly in a way to hurt others; let them pay a price.

BUT, of someone willingly follows others in such a major decision, they can't shove all the blame on those others.They should or rather MUST, do their own research as best they can, not just blindly follow others.

Remember the penalty to all Lemmings who follow the first one, is the same. The only "winners" are the ones who stop following.

[Captain Obvious]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

So it follows that if there are "dupes" it's okay to be the "duper"?

Schools have taught all kinds of things since forever and here we are anyway, Leonard. Since when does teaching how babies are made stop teens from impregnating?
Tell you what, lets ask the questions a different way.
Let's ask: So what responsibility does a person have, who is educated in his product / service, and operating in a capacity of trust as an advisor, to represent that product / service with honesty and integrity when accepting cash for his services?

What responsibility does a teacher have as an educator?
Psychologist, social worker, clergy as counselors?
Lawyers and accountants as representatives?
Doctors as diagnosticians and therapists and prescribers?

When the above abuse their positions of trust for personal gain, how does society -- and the law -- treat them?

I think you are in a better position to state what responsibility a lender has to a borrower.

I think a lender just needs to eat the loss since they made a bad investment. Do you think a lender needs to pay some sort of penance or just give the home for free to the borrower?

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by yeahthatguy

Simple answer stating the realities of human nature and how to best navigate life to a grown up who should already understand this... So you don't get 'rolled'. You are more than welcome to put on your rose tinted sunglasses and believe everyone is out to help you optimize your life for free and wont **** you over if given the chance. As you are more than welcome to believe in 'experts' because of their title.



Some people question things in life.. Others don't.
Some people form their own informed opinions in life. Others just parrot that of someone else.
There are pawns in the game of life and chess players. Everyday you wake up in the morning, you decide which one you're going to be.

P.S - Never stated my ethical view on things .. To me, being an ignorant pawn in life is the most unethical thing you can do as you lay yourself privy to amplify the strength of those who chose to harm society. Ignorance is no excuse and does nothing to diminish the role you play as a pawn in someone else's malicious acts. If you intend to do nothing more w/ your free will but to give it to another human being you were better off not being created.

*back to the game of life*

Interesting. Just barely short enough that I actually skimmed most of your babbling here.
You didn't state your ethical view on things? I'd say you did. It is what I asked for ... and you went off, as always, on long diatribes dispensing life lessons no one asked for -- especially not me. But in the short exception, you made yourself clear: you think it's fine for people to get duped ... it's what they deserve for their "stupidity" as you define it.

Note: I never said I had been taken advantage of financially, did I? But your replies have been all focused on teaching me your 20-something-year-old wisdoms on a wide range of all manner of topics unrelated to my personal history as if you knew it.

If I wanted life lessons, I wouldn't ask them of a youngster who can't manage to grasp the topics he responds to with encyclopedic references on everything else under the sun, and who fabricates stories about himself and assumes alternate identities to hide his past fabrications. I wanted clarification statements about ethics from those posting that the fault of the mortgage crisis lies with the buyers and not the sellers.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by leonard

Hey, fine and jail them all. If they act knowingly in a way to hurt others; let them pay a price.

BUT, of someone willingly follows others in such a major decision, they can't shove all the blame on those others.They should or rather MUST, do their own research as best they can, not just blindly follow others.

Remember the penalty to all Lemmings who follow the first one, is the same. The only "winners" are the ones who stop following.

It's a nice idea ... I like it ... I also note that 10,000 years of human history doesn't support expectations of such wise action by anywhere near the majority of the public. Since history also doesn't show a lot of ethical behavior by people in positions of trust where money is concerned, you'd think humanity would somehow learn. But, facts is facts -- and apparently not.

I don't much care for the concept of "winners" and "losers" ... but, again ...

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

I think you are in a better position to state what responsibility a lender has to a borrower.

I think a lender just needs to eat the loss since they made a bad investment. Do you think a lender needs to pay some sort of penance or just give the home for free to the borrower?

Tough one to sort out Captain O.
Give the home free to the borrower -- uh, certainly not.
Pay a penance? hmmm ... well sorta at some levels ... that's kinda what a civilized society has laws for: to establish some responsibilities for social behaviors -- and ways to ensure compliance.

But in this mortgage mess -- hoo boy howdy ... where do you start / how do you figger out who really knew what or understood what they were doing. It was such a remarkable cluster f**k from the top down. What seems to me is that no one who understood finance is being held accountable at the top ... so how does one go down the ladder to the brokers who just rode the opportunity created by the masterminds ... which included politicians probably ... we know that politicians certainly pursued absurd policies and one can only conclude they did so for their own career benefit somehow.

The core, for me, lies in demanding that government accept oversight responsibilities. The role of government isn't to be overly intrusive in every private affair, business or personal -- but it IS to serve and protect. The best way to do that is to constantly analyze from the position of the public's safety -- and aggressively inform the public and markets alike. If this were done the marketing could have been neutralized. That's where years of conditioning took this thing over. The hype was like blood in the water to everyone from buyers to brokers to bankers and investment product developers.

But this event was so huge, and now the government is so threatened by the recession, there is no public bailout. The banks were "too big to fail" ... and so is the government ... it has to survive. It can't pay for its failure to analyze, oversee, and inform.

Amazing that Greenspan said: "We just never saw this coming" ... the guy should be drawn and quartered. How people in his position, with his education and experience and responsibility could fail to understand something so fundamentally fraudulent is beyond believability. If, as so many ordinary folk on this forum rant, "anyone with a calculator could see ...." etc., then how could the Fed Chairman, Treasury Secretary, etc. not see?

[5thgenSF]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

But in this mortgage mess -- hoo boy howdy ... where do you start / how do you figger out who really knew what or understood what they were doing. It was such a remarkable cluster f**k from the top down. What seems to me is that no one who understood finance is being held accountable at the top ... so how does one go down the ladder to the brokers who just rode the opportunity created by the masterminds ... which included politicians probably ... we know that politicians certainly pursued absurd policies and one can only conclude they did so for their own career benefit somehow.

somebody suggested lowering the mortgages to their current value. i don't see another viable option. we certainly haven't seen the last of homeowners bailing. until that day comes...it will continue to be a nightmare. and even then, all those empty homes are being vandalized and turning to sh*t.

[5thgenSF]

Curmudgeon...

i'm trying to quote that hilarious picture but it doesn't seem to be working! anyway...ROF! i hereby appoint you chairman of the committee to re-employ all those displaced hookers!

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by 5thgenSF

somebody suggested lowering the mortgages to their current value. i don't see another viable option. we certainly haven't seen the last of homeowners bailing. until that day comes...it will continue to be a nightmare. and even then, all those empty homes are being vandalized and turning to sh*t.

Yeah ... but that would really call for lowering millions more under-water mortgages that people continue to pay on in spite of the market change ...

[5thgenSF]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Yeah ... but that would really call for lowering millions more under-water mortgages that people continue to pay on in spite of the market change ...

yeah, that's what i'm saying. if somebody bought a $400,000 house that is now worth $250,000, at some point in time they have to bail. can't sell it, might not be able to rent it out. in many areas those prices will never exist again. it makes no sense to stay long-term.

[GregHenry]

Originally Posted by Captain Obvious

Besides eating the loss, I am not sure what else the lender is responsible for. Do you think the lender should just give the house to the borrower?

The money the bank used to create the mortgage was literally created out of thin air, so I'm not too broken up when a borrower is unable to repay the phony money the bank just breathed into existence.

Ensure you truly understand how fractional-reserve banking works.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by GregHenry

The money the bank used to create the mortgage was literally created out of thin air, so I'm not too broken up when a borrower is unable to repay the phony money the bank just breathed into existence.

Ensure you truly understand how fractional-reserve banking works.

While it is true that money is now created out of nothing at the push of a button in fractional reserve banking ... and while I agree it is a baseless system -- well, based on amorphic "trust" ... we have, as a social species (here we go again Greg) gone way past any point of sanity in population and social unit sizing. Fractional reserve, "central" banking is a necessary evil as long as consumer capitalism is to remain the economic basis for society.

I don't like it a bit. Any of it. I'm just saying: here we are. 7 billion of us ants. Working as slaves to the bankers. And not capable of running a world of this size and complexity without their kind of ruthless and total control. So, revolution and total collapse? Or play the game they created and have a life, however much based on illusion?

Pay the mortgages until a way out of consumerism and a return to values based on productivities becomes a reality. Which way out is a mystery to me, unfortunately.

Freedom? It's in your mind and spirit. Not in your bank account.