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Old 08-08-2012, 06:44 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,297,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmjp24 View Post
FACT: As of 2011, TEXAS has less than 1% of its 26 million on welfare (of any kind) while California is closer to 4% of its 37 million+ and 32% of all welfare recipients in AMERICA live in CALIFORNIA.

FACT: As of 2011, CALIFORNIA's CalWorks cases grew by almost 30% while Texas lowered 15.4%

FACT: California has over 1.5 milion recipients on Cash Aid while Texas has less than 330K. California does not impose Full Family Sanctions....TX does.....

FACT: Food Stamps (SNAP) is run by the Feds, so TX and CA may have similar % b/c the states have very little control over what the Feds do....so the easier the Fed make food stamps more ppl take advantage of it.....California and TX have about 3.9 million each on Food Stamps; however, from May 2011 to May 2012 California had 6.8% increase in Food Stamps enrollees while Texas had 0.3% increase.

FACT: TX just turned down millions in MediCaid $ to control welfare spending and is known for some of the stictest rules in Medicaid .... California has the highest MediCaid (Medi Cal) spending in the country and has now moved 900K more children from its state run (broke) Healthy Families program to MediCal. There are hundreds of articles online that will tell you the gut renching stories of how MediCal has completly shut down ERs/Hospitals b/c California does not pay back doctors 1/2 of what the actual cost of treatment is....this has forced shut downs or even down right refusal to take Medi Cal by doc or hospitals. One such case is in Fresno which has the only Children's Hospital b/w LA and SF....A few years back they had to stop taking MediCal b/c the loss was too great.....

I would not lie in my previous post. I worked as an Administrator for a smaller county in Central California. I am not trying to be bellicous or rude. There are ppl out there who need help and not all of them are driving Caddies, but in 6 years I saw a lot of abuse and at the local level we were helpless against Sacramento and CDSS. And if you look up the statistics in both Child Welfare and Social Services (CalWorks and SNAP) you will see the avg family is over 3 kids.

I talked with many clients and their eligibility workers over the years. Some had hard luck, most did not. I am not writing to offend anyone, but I saw alot of abuse and fraud in welfare spending and I no longer wanted to be anywhere near it. I moved to Calfornia in early 90's and saw it completely deteriorate in 20 years....I am afraid for the next 20 years.....look at the stats....numbers don't lie. Crime/Gangs, Illegal Immigrants, Poverty/Welfare, Unemployment have all increased....bad trends.

I wish you all luck in your journey and I am not here to tell you where to move. You must do what is right for you. If you have money and can live in nicer areas in So Cal or No Cal do it. But if you are middle class like me, Cali is not the best place to be right now. This is my own experience not anyone else's and is not meant to influence.
You just nullified "nullgeo's" position.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:49 PM
 
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
You just nullified "nullgeo's" position.
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Old 08-08-2012, 06:54 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,297,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
I think this would be a pretty good idea ... you and your buddies that work in welfare should collect stories (with verifications) and take them to the welfare management and hierarchies and the media ... I am pretty sure we'd get interest from all sides. A number of journalists would enjoy getting their teeth into sorting out the anecdotal from the larger statistics and other stories to provide an investigative report. If you and / or your buddies don't want to be identified, that's okay too ... just amass your verified stories of abuse and contact me DM ... I will get together with welfare and journalist(s) and create an anonymous pass-through of your verified examples.

Let's see how the numbers add up.

Good post -- if you'll back it up with statistically significant verified examples. Just remember that of a caseload running between 500,000 - 600,000 it will take between 5,000 and 6,000 cases of verified fraud to hit even 1% ... which (1%) is not statistically significant relative to the full community served. Now if you can come up with multiple 10's of thousands of examples where the abuses you cite occur, we have a significant case to bring to the management, politicians, and public. Somehow I doubt you could find 20,000 tickets to Mexico, $10K monthly benefit payments, etc. But if you did, I'll join in presenting the reality to the press.
So if less than 6000 people are committing fraud it isn't worth doing anything about it?????

While I believe we all agree that helping the helpless is good, there should be a major degree of responsibility placed on the case workers and beneficiaries regardless of how many.

Let's see 5999 X even $5000.00 per month is how much a year? My calculator won't show it and being lazy lets just say it would be about: $360,000,000.00 Naw, that is no big deal, just ask Stockton.

Percentages may look small but the dollars are big, especially to those who were working in Stockton that will now lose their job. Oops that's right, they can go on welfare and we will just tax the "Rich" ( in CA that is anyone above about $45,000.00 a year as that is where the max tax starts in CA) and that will provide all the money we need and let the ones fraudulently collecting, keep right on doing so.

Ever wonder why no "bounty" is offered to anyone giving proof of fraud?
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Old 08-08-2012, 07:29 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
You just nullified "nullgeo's" position.
Actually, she didn't. Not even slightly. Because? It is still all anecdotal stories. There is NO / ZERO statistical data. Yes. We all know there is welfare fraud. Thousands of cases CAN be cited. Now where are the actual data to provide perspective of effects?
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
So if less than 6000 people are committing fraud it isn't worth doing anything about it?????
While I never said that exactly -- um, yes, it probably is not worth rooting out. Why? Cost effectiveness. If the numbers are statistically insignificant, but costs to prosecute are higher than losses sustained -- why would you waste resources and cost taxpayers even more?
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
While I believe we all agree that helping the helpless is good, there should be a major degree of responsibility placed on the case workers and beneficiaries regardless of how many.

Let's see 5999 X even $5000.00 per month is how much a year? My calculator won't show it and being lazy lets just say it would be about: $360,000,000.00 Naw, that is no big deal, just ask Stockton.

Percentages may look small but the dollars are big, especially to those who were working in Stockton that will now lose their job. Oops that's right, they can go on welfare and we will just tax the "Rich" ( in CA that is anyone above about $45,000.00 a year as that is where the max tax starts in CA) and that will provide all the money we need and let the ones fraudulently collecting, keep right on doing so.

Ever wonder why no "bounty" is offered to anyone giving proof of fraud?
I have no idea where you get your supposition figures. $5,000 a month? A month? Data please.

Now this would probably be a good place to propose a challenge. Read the following link titled
Eight Great Myths About Welfare
I could type out answers and refutations but they are pretty much covered in just this one piece -- which piece is full of source citations and links.

The real question is:
Do any of you really want to know the truth?
Or do you prefer knee-jerk belief that fits your imaginary scenarios of evil-doer's?

The professional estimates of welfare fraud by enrollees runs from 2% - 3%. Learn about it. Then discuss. There is more fraud committed in tax-evasion by exponentially greater amounts, than in welfare.

Here is another interesting link from Canada about their welfare fraud:
Welfare Fraud… Who’s Really Committing It?
Same issues, basically. Same false public opinions promulgated by certain politicians, sensationalist media, welfare investigation companies that work for profit and have a vested interest in misreporting. It becomes urban legend. Did you know that the term: "Welfare Queen" was created by Ronald Reagan when he gave a speech using a fictitious welfare abuser scenario to score political points when seeking public opinion?

Seriously. Educate yourself. Then come back to the thread and deny statistics -- or accept them. Then we can talk. The rest of this is just throwing stones without any actual knowledge of the issues.
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Old 08-08-2012, 08:38 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,297,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Actually, she didn't. Not even slightly. Because? It is still all anecdotal stories. There is NO / ZERO statistical data. Yes. We all know there is welfare fraud. Thousands of cases CAN be cited. Now where are the actual data to provide perspective of effects?
While I never said that exactly -- um, yes, it probably is not worth rooting out. Why? Cost effectiveness. If the numbers are statistically insignificant, but costs to prosecute are higher than losses sustained -- why would you waste resources and cost taxpayers even more?
I have no idea where you get your supposition figures. $5,000 a month? A month? Data please.

Now this would probably be a good place to propose a challenge. Read the following link titled
Eight Great Myths About Welfare
I could type out answers and refutations but they are pretty much covered in just this one piece -- which piece is full of source citations and links.

The real question is:
Do any of you really want to know the truth?
Or do you prefer knee-jerk belief that fits your imaginary scenarios of evil-doer's?

The professional estimates of welfare fraud by enrollees runs from 2% - 3%. Learn about it. Then discuss. There is more fraud committed in tax-evasion by exponentially greater amounts, than in welfare.

Here is another interesting link from Canada about their welfare fraud:
Welfare Fraud… Who’s Really Committing It?
Same issues, basically. Same false public opinions promulgated by certain politicians, sensationalist media, welfare investigation companies that work for profit and have a vested interest in misreporting. It becomes urban legend. Did you know that the term: "Welfare Queen" was created by Ronald Reagan when he gave a speech using a fictitious welfare abuser scenario to score political points when seeking public opinion?

Seriously. Educate yourself. Then come back to the thread and deny statistics -- or accept them. Then we can talk. The rest of this is just throwing stones without any actual knowledge of the issues.
Hi,

the $5000.00 was 1/2 of the claimed by the other poster. It could be less or it could be more but it is NOT insignificant.

Now you post of 2 to 3%, which is even higher.

"The professional estimates of welfare fraud by enrollees runs from 2% - 3%. Learn about it"

I only used 1% so using your figure how can this not be worth pursuing???? Cost to do so??? Not much just place a $5000.00 bounty for turning anyone in, with proof. That takes all the work out of it, except for administrative review and action. Nowhere near as costly as the savings, even after paying the whistle blower on his neighbor. In CA a handful of people could get rich just turning people in and easy work too. Yes, we would also have sanctions against false charges.
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Old 08-08-2012, 11:05 PM
 
7,150 posts, read 10,854,602 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Hi,

the $5000.00 was 1/2 of the claimed by the other poster. It could be less or it could be more but it is NOT insignificant.

Now you post of 2 to 3%, which is even higher.

"The professional estimates of welfare fraud by enrollees runs from 2% - 3%. Learn about it"

I only used 1% so using your figure how can this not be worth pursuing???? Cost to do so??? Not much just place a $5000.00 bounty for turning anyone in, with proof. That takes all the work out of it, except for administrative review and action. Nowhere near as costly as the savings, even after paying the whistle blower on his neighbor. In CA a handful of people could get rich just turning people in and easy work too. Yes, we would also have sanctions against false charges.
Yeah. I think you're working with vaporous figures. There are no verifications. Anyway, the accusations made weren't that thousands, or all, cheaters were getting away with $10K a month. One can't rightly extrapolate as you have here. Welfare fraud ranges across many types and levels of abuse. It's not anywhere remotely close to the simplicity you have assigned to it.

Did you read the link I most recently provided? It discusses the nature of predominating fraud. Most of it amounts to giving false information on applications -- leading to varying levels of over-payments ... extremely rare that anyone would get away with $5,000 monthly in overpayment. Grain of sand on a five-mile beach.

Enforcement? Bounty? Again, not at all simple as you suggest it could be. There are investigation and enforcement departments in every state. They work huge numbers of reports. There are welfare abuse reporting phone numbers and internet sites. Tons of suspected fraud is reported and investigated. The cost is significant. But what is most interesting to learn is that of all the cases that are prosecuted, only less than about 5% result in convictions -- because most fraud is determined to be error on applications, misunderstandings of the maze of rules and regulations. Other fraud is so minor it's not worth court. $10 here and there. A few hundred here and there. Some of it recovered and or deducted from actual approvals.

There are for-profit investigators on contracts all over the place, too. They love to find fraud. The more they find the more they are paid. If the answers were as simple as people on this board seem to think they could be -- well, there wouldn't be much if any fraud.

Bottom line is: research, read, and learn ... anecdotal stories -- even thousands of them -- are meaningless in the full context of the budget, enforcement, successes of services to the greater numbers.

Another factor not being discussed is the cost to society to NOT minimally support those who are ill-prepared to compete. There is always some level of unemployment in the country, even in the best of times. Those who are least capable of competing for jobs are chronically unemployed. The support network of welfare endeavors to bring some level of opportunity to those who have fallen through the cracks of our society. Sometimes it works. For those that never achieve improvement, if they have no options to work -- whether by their own poor self-image and lack of confidence or other limitations -- what will they do to try and survive? The cost of theft and violence to society, law enforcement, courts, incarcerations, are far higher than the welfare safety net.

By the way, some interesting stories of welfare success can be spun right alongside the stories of abuses. From the linked article:
"As Nancy Amidei said in a speech at the Family Reunion conference in Tennessee, 1992: "Joan Growe, the Secretary of State of Minnesota is a former welfare mom. Judge Sedgewick, an appeals court judge, is a former welfare mom. Two members of the Montana legislature, two members of the Wisconsin legislature, a couple members of the Pennsylvania legislature. (Probably members of the Tennessee legislature are all former welfare moms.) Whoopi Goldberg is a former welfare mom. Carol Burnett is a former welfare kid. Bishop Weakland in Milwaukee is a former welfare kid. Six members of Congress (that I have been able to identify) are former welfare kids. I have run into former welfare kids and former welfare moms who are now PhDs and County Executives, nurses, career Army officials, police, Head Start aides. They are all over the place; they are terrific people and they are welfare success stories."
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Old 08-09-2012, 12:27 AM
 
Location: Central Bay Area, CA as of Jan 2010...but still a proud Texan from Houston!
7,484 posts, read 10,415,891 times
Reputation: 8955
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Hi,

the $5000.00 was 1/2 of the claimed by the other poster. It could be less or it could be more but it is NOT insignificant.

Now you post of 2 to 3%, which is even higher.

"The professional estimates of welfare fraud by enrollees runs from 2% - 3%. Learn about it"

I only used 1% so using your figure how can this not be worth pursuing???? Cost to do so??? Not much just place a $5000.00 bounty for turning anyone in, with proof. That takes all the work out of it, except for administrative review and action. Nowhere near as costly as the savings, even after paying the whistle blower on his neighbor. In CA a handful of people could get rich just turning people in and easy work too. Yes, we would also have sanctions against false charges.
It is easy to jsee the fraud just by comparing the welfare numbers of the two most populous states TX and CA

CA has 12 million more folks than TX but spent 45 BILLION DOLLARS in welfare this year!

TX spent 11.1 BILLION

Compare Welfare Spending By State 1992-2017 - Charts

Knock knock is anybody in there...Hello Sure there is no concern for the CA criminally run welfare system
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Old 08-09-2012, 07:50 AM
 
12 posts, read 17,051 times
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Default one more.....

Hello all....

I did not post here to nullify null or for any other reason to let you know my side of the story. I agree with Null that it would be great to take all these cases and post them all over the internet and news; however, I am bound by both Federal and State confidentiality laws...no one will ever know who committed the fraud and how much it is b/c they are protected under a multitude of laws....i probably already said too much as it is. Unless the Feds start raiding and doing "true" audits of welfare, no one else will stop the fraud waste and abuse. This is a systemic problem. I don't even blame the clients b/c the system allows them to be the way they are with no punishment.

As for telling management, don't you think my "buddies" and I have tried over the years.....some even anonomously reported the agency to the Ombudsman, OIG and other regulating agencies.....NO ONE IN POWER CARED....the 8 kids that got a very expensive trip to Mexico....I fought that all the way up to the Director....you know what she did to me instead.....she transferred me to another dept. DON'T YOU GET IT.....THEY DON'T WANT HONEST PEOPLE LIKE ME.....THIS IS WHY I LEFT....Do you know how many times I pointed out their "grey" ways of spending....I had a boss tell me that I was "TOO BLACK AND WHITE AND NEED TO SEE MORE GREY"......I fought them tooth and nail on spending, budgeting, how they worded contracts and even the fuzzy statistics they used to put out....None of that mattered and in the end my boss told me that "MAYBE WELFARE ISN'T THE PLACE FOR YOU...YOU SHOULD FIND ANOTHER JOB....." and so I did.....

I was not willing to compromise my integrity and my belief system to get a fat pension. I gave up a sweet deal---CalPERS is the biggest state run pension in America and I gave up a huge salary with killer benefits b/c my mental/physical health is more important to me. Most of my former colleagues don't have that privilege b/c they are not educated beyond HSD and will never find a job that pays them $40-50K a year with a life time of benefits so they are stuck.....but don't think for one minute they enjoy their job or the ppl surrounding it b/c they don't. I appreciate Null's sense of quality over quantity....I am a stats person by trade, but until real reform happens that completely overhauls the system it will never change and stories like mine will just be water under the bridge.

All I can say is to get involved in your community and vote....maybe we can make a difference. Ciao.....Adios....
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Old 08-09-2012, 09:14 AM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,297,467 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nullgeo View Post
Another factor not being discussed is the cost to society to NOT minimally support those who are ill-prepared to compete. There is always some level of unemployment in the country, even in the best of times. Those who are least capable of competing for jobs are chronically unemployed. The support network of welfare endeavors to bring some level of opportunity to those who have fallen through the cracks of our society. Sometimes it works. For those that never achieve improvement, if they have no options to work -- whether by their own poor self-image and lack of confidence or other limitations -- what will they do to try and survive? The cost of theft and violence to society, law enforcement, courts, incarcerations, are far higher than the welfare safety net.

By the way, some interesting stories of welfare success can be spun right alongside the stories of abuses. From the linked article:
"As Nancy Amidei said in a speech at the Family Reunion conference in Tennessee, 1992: "Joan Growe, the Secretary of State of Minnesota is a former welfare mom. Judge Sedgewick, an appeals court judge, is a former welfare mom. Two members of the Montana legislature, two members of the Wisconsin legislature, a couple members of the Pennsylvania legislature. (Probably members of the Tennessee legislature are all former welfare moms.) Whoopi Goldberg is a former welfare mom. Carol Burnett is a former welfare kid. Bishop Weakland in Milwaukee is a former welfare kid. Six members of Congress (that I have been able to identify) are former welfare kids. I have run into former welfare kids and former welfare moms who are now PhDs and County Executives, nurses, career Army officials, police, Head Start aides. They are all over the place; they are terrific people and they are welfare success stories."
No one with a heart or brains objects to helping those in need. No one with any brains denies that people are helped to improve their lives with such help.

No one with any brains denies that millions if not billions are lost to fraud. If the minimal number if individuals trying to enforce the laws were capable of doing it we would have far less fraud. The companies chasing fraud also seem to be limited.

Isn't it interesting that the Gov't has plans in place for whistle blowers where they get a major portion of the recovered fraud in Gov't contracts issued. Far less offered to anyone with a provable case would save the cost not generated by the Gov't investigators and accelerate not only the number exposed, but would function as a far greater determent than the existing efforts.

The % and actual amounts are unknown and anecdotal amounts may not reflect total reality. It is still a LOT of money that could be used to help people truly in need, which I am sure you would like to see as well.
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Old 08-09-2012, 03:22 PM
 
Location: Oxygen Ln. AZ
9,319 posts, read 18,703,726 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cmjp24 View Post
Here are some more scary stories about welfare that are more common than you think.

FACT: For Eligibility welfare offices cannot include your car value, your house value, your savings and/or retirement accounts as part of your eligibility for welfare. We had people who lived in $300K houses, drove new Cars and had $1000's of dollars in their savings that were eligible for food stamps, medical and/or cash if they had dependent children. Most of our clients owned more than one car and a house. If they were so "poor" how do they have $4 a gallon for their cars and $1100 or more for their mortgage......

FACT: Most welfare depts are so bogged down with caseloads that they do not have the time to audit cases that are redflagged for income. See there is a system that flags ppl's ssn's through payrolls and the irs and send those lists out to welfare agencies......I cannot tell you how many times we had ppl with a job or two earning income and not self reporting....that means they were not only collecting welfare, but a paycheck as well....FRAUD.....

FACT: Most welfare agencies are July to June Fiscal Years in CA therefore if they do not spend or overspend their CalWorks dollars they get redistributed, so guess what they do with that extra money. Well in the case of where I worked, they send $200 checks per child per household to each client for them to purchase "school supplies" without requiring a receipt or any proof that they spent that money on "school supplies".....Interesting....considering most of these people are supposed to use their welfare dollars on things like shoes and clothes for their children so why do they need more money to do it....THEY DONT.....

FACT: When I worked in child welfare, the welfare office would use child welfare dollars to pay for braces for kids when middle class families cant even afford to buy these for their own kids. Guess what else they buy them? Cars, Bicycles, Furniture, Cell Phones....Gee I thought paying foster parents to take care of these kids assists with this...NOPE......Oh yea and I forgot how about the 8 illegal children my office decided to buy plane tickets, suitcases, clothes and passports for so they could visit their family in Mexico. ..... HUUUUMMMMMM......

I ve got about 1000 more examples I can give you from just one small county office.....imagine LA or SF or even FRESNO....and multiply that....

I am all for helping out the poor and abused children but there is a limit on giving people things they need to get by versus what we do and give them more incentive to sit at home and drink beer all day b/c that is exactly what they do....

And what about the "sanctions"....in california all that means is that you still get paid for each of your children until they turn 18. And yes between Medi Cal, Cash Aid, Food Stamps, Disability, Section 8, IHSS some of these families do bank well over $10 K a month in benefits....and I am not even including other benefits such as college tuition, books, gas money/transportation, "school supplies", child care and much much more that gets paid for as a supplement to the benefits mentioned above.....oh yea and we buy them refrigerators, beds, cleaning supplies,,,,,,,,more more more more......

So the next time you think I am off base with my so called "hyperbole" think about your federal tax dollars and what they are being used for. Do your kids have braces or get to fly to Mexico to visit their family or how about the $150 passports...what about $200 for "school supplies".....these are TRUE stories and alot more than that.

Whoever these liberal bloggers are that toll the internet looking for posts like mine...get a life and get a job b/c you live in fantasy land.

And if you need more stories or statistics....I will contact plenty of my buddies that work in welfare to come and post here too...WE CAN DO THIS ALL DAY.....
Fantastic post. Just remember that most liberals will refuse to see the truth behind this kind of abuse and will continue to keep their heads in the sand just to keep the money flowing. We could fix this, yes we could. I think you should run for office....I really do.
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