Feinstein - No Issues with Monitoring Americans' Calls (homes, buy)

[CAVA1990]

"Nothing to see here sheeple - been going on for seven years".

Can you do us all a favor and elect a new senator next time she's up?

[nullgeo]

One familiar with my posts might assume I would jump on the anti-Feinstein and anti-wiretapping bandwagon -- but, surprise surprise, not so. This is garden-variety data-mining. It is completely impersonal, unless the sorts find matches to known / suspected security threats. Now, while there is concern over establishing a precedent for government to have the rights to collect data which, many would argue, could be used for other kinds of surveillance, some thought should be given to the reality that we are in the digital age now. Data mining exists in extraordinary depth by the private sector already. All of these "records" are available to the government because, well, they exist in the private sector already. The government isn't forcing Verizon to collect something it hasn't already collected.

Anybody can buy this kind of information from private sellers in a variety of sorts.

Welcome to the nasty reality of living in the digital age.

[ZorbaTheGeek]

Welcome to anti-terrorism. Anything is justifiable. It's not as if Feinstein lead the charge on that. Give it up already.

[nullgeo]

It is funny (yeah, haha funny) that all this money is being spent and all these assaults on our personal freedoms are being perpetrated in the name of "keeping us safe" from a threat that kills so few -- compared to, oh say, tobacco, booze, fast-food lifestyle, toxic additives to food and other consumables, unnecessary medical procedures, poor medical oversight and management in hospitals ........... etc. all of which murder and maim and cripple at rates in the hundreds of thousands of Americans per year ... yet which industries are protected by government and law.

None of those above listed threats require any surveillances at all. None of them are prosecuted either. Though I will hand it to Feinstein: she does tend to favor oversight of those industries / issues. So good for her.

La-dee-dah ...

[hoffdano]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

One familiar with my posts might assume I would jump on the anti-Feinstein and anti-wiretapping bandwagon -- but, surprise surprise, not so. This is garden-variety data-mining. It is completely impersonal, unless the sorts find matches to known / suspected security threats. Now, while there is concern over establishing a precedent for government to have the rights to collect data which, many would argue, could be used for other kinds of surveillance, some thought should be given to the reality that we are in the digital age now. Data mining exists in extraordinary depth by the private sector already. All of these "records" are available to the government because, well, they exist in the private sector already. The government isn't forcing Verizon to collect something it hasn't already collected.

Anybody can buy this kind of information from private sellers in a variety of sorts.

Welcome to the nasty reality of living in the digital age.

I do not believe you can buy data legally anywhere that will show who a Verizon customer called, when they called, and how long they talked, for the last six years. If this data were readily available, our junk call count would be off the charts. Amazon for starters could see how many people called Barnes & Noble and target market to these people directly.

That isn't happening.

This is a massive overreach by the feds. I don't care that it started under Bush. Obama has five years of this now under his administration. If the feds are looking for "who called number x (a suspected terrorist)" then I have no problem with the feds, under a reviewed legal process, obtaining that data from Verizon (or any other telephone company).

I think it is simply wrong of the government to routinely and easily learn that much about what its residents do with their telephones. It is not garden variety data mining when the FBI and NSA do it.

[hoffdano]

The funny angle on this, specific to Feinstein, is her anti-gun position. Anyone who justifies their ownership of guns as a protection or check on government power will further harden their position that they need to own guns.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by hoffdano

I do not believe you can buy data legally anywhere that will show who a Verizon customer called, when they called, and how long they talked, for the last six years. If this data were readily available, our junk call count would be off the charts. Amazon for starters could see how many people called Barnes & Noble and target market to these people directly.

That isn't happening.

This is a massive overreach by the feds. I don't care that it started under Bush. Obama has five years of this now under his administration. If the feds are looking for "who called number x (a suspected terrorist)" then I have no problem with the feds, under a reviewed legal process, obtaining that data from Verizon (or any other telephone company).

I think it is simply wrong of the government to routinely and easily learn that much about what its residents do with their telephones. It is not garden variety data mining when the FBI and NSA do it.

Actually, ALL that data IS already collected and available -- to the company that collects it (Verizon, for example) ... and if they want to sell it -- in the form the government demands it -- they can and will. Verizon's only pi**ed because it has to give it to Uncle Sam for free. If they were getting paid for it they wouldn't care in the slightest.

And the point was / is, data-mining is a huge business / force in today's world. Your privacy isn't. Your privacy doesn't exist anymore.

The government isn't collecting names, it is collecting data numbers -- which numbers can be traced to names if there is a reason to do that. That, of course is the fear: Big Brother CAN get your personal details if it wants! Yeah, well it can a lot of ways. So can Amazon, and Barnes and Noble, and every other corporation in the world that has the bucks to pay for the data. And they do.

Hey, you using Google right now? Look up at the browser page ... see all the ads changing every time you click forward and then move on to another? Notice what a coincidence it is that there's an ad for chicken-manure when you were just having a fun e-mail exchange with your buddy about how chicken-shirt your boss is?

Funny how that keeps on happening, ain't it?

[CAVA1990]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

Actually, ALL that data IS already collected and available -- to the company that collects it (Verizon, for example) ... and if they want to sell it -- in the form the government demands it -- they can and will. Verizon's only pi**ed because it has to give it to Uncle Sam for free. If they were getting paid for it they wouldn't care in the slightest.

And the point was / is, data-mining is a huge business / force in today's world. Your privacy isn't. Your privacy doesn't exist anymore.

The government isn't collecting names, it is collecting data numbers -- which numbers can be traced to names if there is a reason to do that. That, of course is the fear: Big Brother CAN get your personal details if it wants! Yeah, well it can a lot of ways. So can Amazon, and Barnes and Noble, and every other corporation in the world that has the bucks to pay for the data. And they do.

You know I'm pretty liberal, socially and somewhat fiscally, but I'm also a fierce civil libertarian because I do not trust the Federal bureaucracy, whether its democrats or republicans in charge at the time.

You know I'm pretty liberal, socially and economically, but I'm also a fierce libertarian because I do not trust the Federal bureaucracy, democrats or republicans.

Hey, you using Google right now? Look up at the browser page ... see all the ads changing every time you click forward and then move on to another? Notice what a coincidence it is that there's an ad for chicken-manure when you were just having a fun e-mail exchange with your buddy about how chicken-shirt your boss is?

Funny how that keeps on happening, ain't it?

Having private companies do it for profit is a bit different than having the government do it. I really couldn't care less if Amazon knows what I do on-line. The worst they can do is try to sell me something I don't really want. They can't throw me in jail, seize my property (remember rico?) or audit my taxes.

You know I'm pretty liberal, socially and somewhat fiscally, however, I'm also a fierce civil libertarian and do not trust the Federal bureaucray, no matter whether it's democrats or republicans in charge at the time.

[nullgeo]

Originally Posted by CAVA1990

Having private companies do it for profit is a bit different than having the government do it. I really couldn't care less if Amazon knows what I do on-line. The worst they can do is try to sell me something I don't really want. They can't throw me in jail, seize my property (remember rico?) or audit my taxes.

You know I'm pretty liberal, socially and somewhat fiscally, however, I'm also a fierce civil libertarian and do not trust the Federal bureaucray, no matter whether it's democrats or republicans in charge at the time.

Yeah, I understand your concern and beef ... but it misses my most essential point: if Amazon can buy your information, then the government can too, anyway. If mass data is available on the open market, exactly how would you stop the government from obtaining the same?

What they can do with it doesn't matter with regard to availability. If you/we are concerned with government seizing our homes and throwing us in jail, then we need to address the laws governing their justification for those actions -- not the availability of the information. The information IS available already.

[Dunbar42]

Originally Posted by nullgeo

if Amazon can buy your information, then the government can too, anyway. If mass data is available on the open market, exactly how would you stop the government from obtaining the same?

I seriously doubt the phone companies are selling the phone records of their customers in the same format the government is demanding it. Basically the government stores the records of every phone call that is made from your phone number for as long as they want.

One other difference between private companies and government is you can "opt out" of much of the online data collection by choosing not to use services that sell your data. The worst part of the NSA stuff is that it's all secret so we're just supposed to trust that the oversight functions are working. And yes, the democrats appear to be just as willing as republicans to allow the government to snoop on our private communications.