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Old 12-17-2007, 03:11 PM
Location: Denver
8,990 posts, read 15,185,674 times
Reputation: 5158


^^^^ no it is not rocket science and it works in every location where there is a high cost of living.

Nobody would go to New York City and expect to live there cheap, why do people expect another high demand area like the California Coast line to be cheap?

If you can't afford it, move inland.

No California is not the same place it was 10-20 years ago, places evolve and change, Orange County used to be bunch of grass 10 years ago, now it is a bustling economy with 2 TV shows.

What I see happening is that the old-school progressive Californians have grown old and conservative.
Now they want to change it back, sorry doesn't work like that, grow with the times or this state will continue to roll without you.

Last edited by Mach50; 12-17-2007 at 03:21 PM..

Old 12-17-2007, 03:30 PM
92 posts, read 312,728 times
Reputation: 92
Originally Posted by cobmw View Post
I think what saddens many of us is that we are getting old enough to remember CA when it was the Golden State. Days like when Pat Brown (not to be confused with moonbeam) was govenor. CA was a fresh, clean, vibrant place. So much of it now seems to be in decay. We search for another CA but can't find it not realizing that what we are really searching for is the past. I'd say the front range of Colorado comes the closest I've seen to the old California that I enjoyed. Clean, growing, decent schools, lowish taxes but miserably cold winters by CA standards.
I think you're romanticizing a bit too much here. CA in the 50s and 60s also had significant problems. The schools were overcrowded wherever the growth was (certainly in San Jose where I grew up), the level of racism, especially against Mexicans (as we called them then) was so high, it shocks and embarasses me when I think back on it, we were destroying the land with DDT, dams, and housing tracts, and the cities were very polluted with the exhaust from leaded gas.

These problems existed in other states, to be sure, but I don't see that the days under Pat Brown were any better than today, except that maybe we were in a dream state about what progress would bring. But I think we just didn't see the problems that were building. It's not that we were willfully ignoring them; we just plain didn't see them. Dams were good because they were good for growth and agriculture was still king in CA, so the more pesticides and chemical fertilizers the better. And while a few complained about growth, so many people were getting rich from it, the complaints were always drowned out by the boosterism. As one writer quoted Henry Ridder, publisher of the San Jose Mercury-News in the 50s, when asked how his paper could editorialize for replacing the orchards of the Valley of Hearts Delight with housing, "Trees don't read newspapers."

I wouldn't romanticize the Front Range, either. We have problems aplenty. We do have some high-performing grade schools and high schools, but many are woefully underfunded (a function of our lowish taxes). My town, Denver, is notorious in the area for its failing schools (like most big-city school systems, it seems) and, well, you know the Columbine story, I'm sure. And that's just the Front Range; let's not talk about the school problems in the outstate where they can't even afford to replace crumbling, unsafe school buildings. Maybe it's better here than CA, I don't know. Our state colleges and universities are so underfunded, the law school STUDENTS at CU Boulder, our flagship university, had to vote to increase their tuition for a new building to prevent the law school from losing its accreditation (another function of our lowish taxes).

Our highways are also not in very good shape and the congestion, though certainly not as bad as CA, is certainly worse than CA highways in the 50s and early 60s when CA was building them at a prodigious rate. We have an elevated portion of a major highway that rates around a 30 on the highway transportation safety board's scorecard. It should have been replaced over a decade ago, but the state simply doesn't have the money (yet another function of our lowish taxes).

Yes, the area is growing, but the environmental cost is catching up to us. The Denver Metro area just fell off the list of the EPA's clean air cities because we violated ozone standards one too many times this year. South of Denver, Douglas County (which boomed in the 90s) now must search for water. Its growth was predicated on overly optimistic estimates of underground water supplies and, now, homeowners on the edges of the aquifer are having to drill increasingly deeper wells to find water. Cities along the Front Range have been buying up agricultural water rights in an effort to keep up with growth, drying up the farms that made the outlying area so pretty.

And, yes, we have gang and drug problems--not on the scale of CA, but they are here. And these problems are not just inner city problems; they exist in some pretty rural areas, as well.

My apologies for the rant, but I think that the CA you're referring to, like the Front Range you mention, is something you're seeing through rose-colored glasses and a good dose of nostalgia. And, please, don't misunderstand me. I love CA (where I was born and raised) and I love CO (where I've chosen to live). But both states, like just about everywhere in the world, had and have their problems.

And, to keep this rambling post sort of on-topic: much as I love CO, I believe that CA has a better chance at solving its problems than CO does. In my lifetime, CA has figured out how to manage big problems at least two or three times--the water shortages of the 70s, for example, and the deficits of the 70s and 90s (remember I said "managed," not "solved"). The big problems we have on the Front Range today are the same problems we had when I moved here in the 80s--underfunded K-12 schools, water issues, traffic congestion, bad air (again), sprawl.
Old 12-17-2007, 04:04 PM
566 posts, read 1,682,745 times
Reputation: 322
So to sum it up California never was much good and people destroyed what little there was to enjoy. Then man came to Colorado and did the same. I have a different viewpoint. CA was a fantastic place - still is in some ways, but the scales have tipped far over to the unpleasant side. A lot of us see CA not so much as a place that was lost to progress; instead we see it as a place that was stolen from us. Illegal immigrants did most of the work and the voters either too lazy to study issues or brainwashed by the liberal education system did the rest.
Old 12-17-2007, 04:17 PM
566 posts, read 1,682,745 times
Reputation: 322
It's funny. We can afford to live anywhere in the US including the nicest parts of California. Money is not an issue for us as it is for many who leave CA. But is it still wise to throw away money on high taxes that are set to go even higher? And what about quality of life? Trapped between the mountains and a poluted sea coast with 15 million other people all trying to get in front of you on the freeway. Maybe for a 20 year old desperate for the high salary - and then only for a while.
Old 12-17-2007, 04:48 PM
Location: Shallow alcove hidden from the telescreen
2,792 posts, read 9,569,427 times
Reputation: 1425
Originally Posted by cobmw View Post
A lot of us see CA not so much as a place that was lost to progress; instead we see it as a place that was stolen from us. Illegal immigrants did most of the work and the voters either too lazy to study issues or brainwashed by the liberal education system did the rest.
Well, I wondered how long it would take for this thread to lose its luster to the usual and predictable "square-states" banter. Nuttin' personal there, cobmw, but reading post after post of expressions like this, my mouse pointer is slowly edging towards the "unsubscribe from this thread" link.
Old 12-18-2007, 09:53 AM
Location: Whiteville Tennessee
8,262 posts, read 15,709,531 times
Reputation: 9992
Seems to me most of Californias problems are self induced--you guys have ruled and regulated yourselves to death. You guys pass SO many new laws/propositions and each one of them costs $ to enforce. Cant smoke. Cant build want you want because the zoning laws wont let you. Dont call a spade a spade or you might get sued. geesh. So politically correct. The best thing I ever did was get the he** out and come back south where the folks are real and unpretentious. Not to mention the fact that I can live quite well on my measley $65,000 salary. While ya'll worry about your dropping home values, us folks from Tennessee, Arkansas and elsewhere in Dixie will stay here and enjoy our $40,000 little houses sitting on 15 acres of trees and trout streams. You guys can battle the zoning commissions and political correctness police. Just remember--dont do what you want to do inside YOUR home or YOUR business--do what those crazya** politicians tell you to do. You see--here in the South we pay our politicians to STAY OUT OF OUR BUSINESS!!
Old 12-18-2007, 04:40 PM
1,831 posts, read 4,646,054 times
Reputation: 661
Originally Posted by cobmw View Post
Yes there are many a day when I wish I could enjoy some good CA weather. I hate being stuck inside. But consider the alternative ...
So if the move to Colorado is so great and you're happy with it, what's the point of constantly complaining about California? Do you need to reaffirm your decision as you're suffering through a miserable winter?

Why are you guys constantly compelled to tell us to move? We live here so ... duh ... you're not telling us anything that we don't already know.

What's the point of chanting this mantra over and over again? Are you trying to convince yourself that you made the right decision?

I don't need to be told to move to places like Colorado just because that's what you did. Quite frankly, I'd rather die than live in snow again ... period.
Old 12-18-2007, 06:18 PM
Location: Shallow alcove hidden from the telescreen
2,792 posts, read 9,569,427 times
Reputation: 1425
Originally Posted by Lt. Dan View Post
You see--here in the South we pay our politicians to STAY OUT OF OUR BUSINESS!!
Especially all those Bible-belt fundamentalist politicians there in the South. Yeah, they don't want to dictate to any of us how to live. Right.
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