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Old 01-02-2015, 07:39 PM
 
2,631 posts, read 6,985,017 times
Reputation: 1408

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
Well then, I'm sure your "friend " musta told you SF has no flaws.

Obviously you don't know this forum
Technicially he didn't lie.
He's white and a little close minded to my issues as a black person in America.

He's my boy but at times he can be insensitive about my struggles.


He says I make nothing but excuses, I should stop playing the victim, quit whining and if I apply myself Ill do fine but he doesn't understand thats not how it works.

I have dealt with covert racism before. It's a systematic racism that can't be beat with a strong work ethic and positive attitude. All you can do is avoid it.

In his eyes, aside from the expense he thinks SF is perfect but that's because he's on the winning team and I'm on the losing team.

His experiences are going to be alot different then mine.
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,105,145 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron View Post
Your looking way too deep into this.

I was curious about living in san fransico because its always the top city on every list about good cities.
I had bad experiences with the northeast and its covert racism. It parades itself as a liberal area just like SAN FRAN but PA,CT,NY, MA are some of the most racist areas in the whole nation.

Using my past experiences of being refused for jobs that I'm qualified for, apartments I can afford, and being bullied by the police I wanted to make sure I didn't move back into a similar environment.

I live in Houston TX now and like it here but it has its flaws.
My friend left for California and I wanted to move out there because from what I have been told San Fran >>>Houston.
I make 55,00$ a year now (not counting sidework) as an A level technician one step below a Master which I'm training to become. So I figured $$$ wouldn't be too much of an issue.

I thought if I could make 62,000$ a year as a Master technician (+side work $$) and switch over to engineering when I get my Bachelors degree I should be fine. I wanted to make sure this liberal city isn't pretend to be liberal like the Northeast.

I asked multiple forums; CD being one of them and I received mixed responses. So I did some research that backed up the negative information I received from certain posters and I made my decision to stay in Houston.

I never said anything negative about the city or its people. I just wanted an answer to my question.
Thankyou all for your input.

/thread closed.
Okay, this actually seems serious. There are many flaws in your thinking, however:

1. I don't believe there would be nearly as many jobs available in SF as there are in Houston that you would be qualified for. The City is not the car culture that Houston is. Now, the Bay Area in general is another story. I and a couple of others said as much to you.

2. I don't believe you would be refused an apartment you could afford, but I do believe you would have difficulty finding an affordable apartment, especially given the difficulty you would have in finding suitable employment. Even if you did find a $62,000 job, that would only afford you a low-end apartment in the highly competitive SF market. That's another variable at work: a competitive market unlike what you have in Houston.

That means you would likely be up against people much more qualified for that apartment. Chances are, these people would not be black. Now, if the apartment went to a non-black person instead of you, would it be due to racism? Maybe. Maybe not. No way to tell.

I'm a white male who was denied about 6-8 apartments I was completely qualified for in SF. I even had an Asian landlord lease an apartment to someone who outbid me for it after she already accepted me. It didn't occur to me that it was due to racism, just the economics of SF--which again is what that article is about and also half of your quoted Wiki entry about Hunters Point is about.

Hence my comment that when all you have is a hammer (perceived racism), all the world looks like a nail (displacement due to economics).

Last edited by dalparadise; 01-02-2015 at 07:57 PM..
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:51 PM
 
Location: San Diego, California Republic
16,581 posts, read 27,248,742 times
Reputation: 9001
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron View Post
Technicially he didn't lie.
He's white and a little close minded to my issues as a black person in America.

He's my boy but at times he can be insensitive about my struggles.


He says I make nothing but excuses, I should stop playing the victim, quit whining and if I apply myself Ill do fine but he doesn't understand thats not how it works.

I have dealt with covert racism before. It's a systematic racism that can't be beat with a strong work ethic and positive attitude. All you can do is avoid it.

In his eyes, aside from the expense he thinks SF is perfect but that's because he's on the winning team and I'm on the losing team.

His experiences are going to be alot different then mine.
"stop playing the victim" "Playing the race card" "race baiting" "Just work hard" etc. Whenever you hear these phrases, stop that conversation with the person who has said any of those. That person has closed themselves off to what you're saying. Dismissed you completely and knows better than you what your experiences are like. As a Black Man also, it took me a long time to learn that you will not get through to anyone who replies to you like that. Don't waste your time. When it comes to racism, only engage with those who've opened up their minds enough to at least consider what you're saying. Otherwise, you're just beating your head against the wall.
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:54 PM
 
Location: southern california
61,290 posts, read 87,066,921 times
Reputation: 55549
we often use the same words but by them mean very different things
abraham lincoln
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Old 01-02-2015, 07:56 PM
 
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,105,145 times
Reputation: 3145
Honestly, I believe you'd find more discrimination against your being Texan than being black...and I expect some backlash for that.

Employers will not generally respect your credentials--both educational and work history. I've found this to be both true and justified in my field. In my line of work, my portfolio is everything and my portfolio from Texas, while great by those standards, was sub-par by SF standards. I took a real cut in pay to come here initially, with the promise that I could prove myself and make it up, which I did.

Landlords are leery of flame-outs who come here without a good understanding of the expense and end up bailing after a few months. That's why the qualification process is so strict--to get people who will stick. That also applies to professional jobs. It's expensive to hire people in good positions. Employers don't want starry-eyed dreamers who don't get SF and leave for home. It costs them money.

Texas is a different environment altogether. Much less competitive, more blue-collar, and far less expensive. So, people in charge of jobs and apartments keep an eye on you for a bit to make sure you're serious and aren't going to screw them over.

All of this looks a little like racism, right? Yeah, and some of it surely is. But SF is not as racist as Houston by a long shot, in my observation.

edited-"observation" for "experience" as not to presume to have experienced racism.
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Old 01-02-2015, 08:17 PM
 
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,105,145 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
"stop playing the victim" "Playing the race card" "race baiting" "Just work hard" etc. Whenever you hear these phrases, stop that conversation with the person who has said any of those. That person has closed themselves off to what you're saying. Dismissed you completely and knows better than you what your experiences are like. As a Black Man also, it took me a long time to learn that you will not get through to anyone who replies to you like that. Don't waste your time. When it comes to racism, only engage with those who've opened up their minds enough to at least consider what you're saying. Otherwise, you're just beating your head against the wall.
I do admit I had closed myself off to what he was saying at one point, because it did seem like he was jockeying for an intended outcome. Subsequent posts have made me think otherwise and his question now seems more sincere.

OP-please accept this as my honest statement that I do not dismiss your concerns at all and am only responding in an attempt to answer them from whatever perspective I can offer.
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Old 01-02-2015, 09:45 PM
 
2,631 posts, read 6,985,017 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gentoo View Post
"stop playing the victim" "Playing the race card" "race baiting" "Just work hard" etc. Whenever you hear these phrases, stop that conversation with the person who has said any of those. That person has closed themselves off to what you're saying. Dismissed you completely and knows better than you what your experiences are like. As a Black Man also, it took me a long time to learn that you will not get through to anyone who replies to you like that. Don't waste your time. When it comes to racism, only engage with those who've opened up their minds enough to at least consider what you're saying. Otherwise, you're just beating your head against the wall.
He's a good guy/good friend but your right, talking to him about racism is like talking to a brick wall.
I try my best to avoid discussions about race when talking to him.
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Old 01-02-2015, 10:26 PM
 
2,631 posts, read 6,985,017 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalparadise View Post
I do admit I had closed myself off to what he was saying at one point, because it did seem like he was jockeying for an intended outcome. Subsequent posts have made me think otherwise and his question now seems more sincere.

OP-please accept this as my honest statement that I do not dismiss your concerns at all and am only responding in an attempt to answer them from whatever perspective I can offer.
It's all good.

I may have been a little close minded myself taking the bad information about San fran over the good.

Looking back I can see how you may have thought I was race or city vs city baiting which is not my intent.

What initially drew me to San fran was that it had a strong nightlife, good weather, beautiful scenery, a vibrant atmosphere, a unique interesting diverse culture, lots of resturaunts, decent shopping, its only 6 hrs away from L.A. and its extremely clean looking.

I'm willing to pay to live in that type of environment.

However I just wanted to make sure that san fran did not have any problems with race.

Living in the northeast has taught me that just because a state says they are liberal does not mean they aren't a majority racist state/area.


I received positive and negative feedback. What I noticed is that even the positive responses where indirectly agreeing with the negative feedback o I did some research.

When I heard that alot of blacks were segregated from the rest It raised a red flag.

I get that San fran is an elist city and its very white collar competitive. It's defiantly discriminative against the working class but people have said on other threads, forums, that there is a strong covert racist element to the city.

I have experienced covert racism and its no joking matter. It ruins lives thats why when people starting saying San fran had a strong element of covert racism I was like "Oh no. Were done."


So my question to you should be why are so many blacks not doing well in that city?

Last edited by Veyron; 01-02-2015 at 10:54 PM..
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:18 PM
 
2,631 posts, read 6,985,017 times
Reputation: 1408
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalparadise View Post
Honestly, I believe you'd find more discrimination against your being Texan than being black...and I expect some backlash for that.

Employers will not generally respect your credentials--both educational and work history. I've found this to be both true and justified in my field. In my line of work, my portfolio is everything and my portfolio from Texas, while great by those standards, was sub-par by SF standards. I took a real cut in pay to come here initially, with the promise that I could prove myself and make it up, which I did.

Landlords are leery of flame-outs who come here without a good understanding of the expense and end up bailing after a few months. That's why the qualification process is so strict--to get people who will stick. That also applies to professional jobs. It's expensive to hire people in good positions. Employers don't want starry-eyed dreamers who don't get SF and leave for home. It costs them money.

Texas is a different environment altogether. Much less competitive, more blue-collar, and far less expensive. So, people in charge of jobs and apartments keep an eye on you for a bit to make sure you're serious and aren't going to screw them over.

All of this looks a little like racism, right? Yeah, and some of it surely is. But SF is not as racist as Houston by a long shot, in my observation.

edited-"observation" for "experience" as not to presume to have experienced racism.

I've been in Houston for a year and a half and I never experienced racism.

I've always been fairly compensated. I was never refused or steered away from the nicer apartments. I had no problem finiding jobs, no police harrasment and I never was refused service.

I have met some pretty prejudice ignorant people here but they weren't racist. The prejudice here is defiantly overt which is good because I can be awaee and avoid those people for social interactions.

Houston is one of the most integrated cities in the nation the complete opposite of san fran.





There may be racism in Houston but I can't say if I ever experienced it personally.

People here care more about $$$ then skin color. If your a good worker they will give you raises or compensate you pretty good. Theres no rental discrimination etc etc
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Old 01-02-2015, 11:44 PM
 
Location: Baghdad by the Bay (San Francisco, California)
3,530 posts, read 5,105,145 times
Reputation: 3145
Quote:
Originally Posted by Veyron View Post
It's all good.

I may have been a little close minded myself taking the bad information about San fran over the good.

Looking back I can see how you may have thought I was race or city vs city baiting which is not my intent.

What initially drew me to San fran was that it had a strong nightlife, good weather, beautiful scenery, a vibrant atmosphere, a unique interesting diverse culture, lots of resturaunts, decent shopping, its only 6 hrs away from L.A. and its extremely clean looking.

I'm willing to pay to live in that type of environment.

However I just wanted to make sure that san fran did not have any problems with race.

Living in the northeast has taught me that just because a state says they are liberal does not mean they aren't a majority racist state/area.


I received positive and negative feedback. What I noticed is that even the positive responses where indirectly agreeing with the negative feedback o I did some research.

When I heard that alot of blacks were segregated from the rest It raised a red flag.

I get that San fran is an elist city and its very white collar competitive. It's defiantly discriminative against the working class but people have said on other threads, forums, that there is a strong covert racist element to the city.

I have experienced covert racism and its no joking matter. It ruins lives thats why when people starting saying San fran had a strong element of covert racism I was like "Oh no. Were done."


So my question to you should be why are so many blacks not doing well in that city?
Thank you for saying that. I appreciate it. I do get that our experiences are different.

I will not disagree that it is tougher for blacks to do well in SF, but you must understand that the the comparison between SF and Houston is inherently flawed. To illustrate this, ask yourself how blacks in Houston are doing in Downtown, Montrose, Heights, West University, Bellaire, River Oaks, Tanglewood, Uptown and Timbergrove?

That's about the same area of the entire City of San Francisco relative to the Bay Area as a whole. It is wealthy, predominantly white, and is the center of shopping, employment, and retail in all of Houston. It also enjoys the highest real estate values in the region. The main difference is, this area is not arbitrarily defined as its own city. If it were, it would definitely be a place that "would raise red flags to you". It has been highly gentrified with neighborhoods like Third and Sixth Wards and The Heights being basically bulldozed for incoming white urbanites. Blacks have been pushed farther to the east, north and southeast sides and it is not terribly welcoming to blacks. Yet, it is an integral part of the core of Houston-- a place where you admit you "have no problems". Without it, Houston wouldn't register on anyone's radar. But that perimeter part of Houston is what makes it one of the most diverse cities in the country!

The same is true of the Bay Area, except that there are viable, vibrant cities outside of the elite, predominantly white (and in the Bay's case, also Asian) area we call San Francisco. Furthermore, in the Bay Area's case, employment, and social interaction between whites and blacks seems to happen much more naturally and organically than it ever did in Houston. That's the California attitude at work. It's much more liberal and inclusive than I observed in Texas.

I'll concede it may be my imagination, but blacks in the Bay Area seem to be afforded much greater opportunities for upward mobility and they appear to have greater access to wealth than they did in Houston. Conversely, black ghettos seem tougher and poorer, with fewer opportunities to escape. There does appear to be a kind of (I believe) unintended "racism of liberalism" in California that, through programs for the poor, actually promotes poverty by making it sustainable. Thus, the poor get caught in the system and segregation becomes institutionalized. This was not the case in Texas. The poor are largely forgotten there.

I think people were taking for granted that you understood that a better comparison is Houston to Bay Area, rather than Houston to SF. That explains the answers you received.

I hope that clarifies my earlier statements a bit better. Apologies again for jumping to conclusions earlier.
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