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Old 05-25-2015, 12:21 PM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
807 posts, read 894,082 times
Reputation: 1391

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenZephyr View Post
Saudi Arabia's £67bn King Abdullah Economic City to be finished by 2035 | Daily Mail Online

Meanwhile in other parts of the world, Saudi Arabia of all places, with NO ground water, massive cities are being built.

How to they create all this greenery and support so many people when there is no water?. Is it magic?

Funny, CA could do all this and more, instead we worry more about glasses of water at a restaurant and lawns, while others are innovating and living in the 21st century and terraforming.





As another poster so astutely put it, you have to produce, not just reduce.

You can't cut your way to prosperity. We have the power to create vast volumes of fresh water, state leadership doesn't. No will, no creativity, no innovation. The best they can come up with are cuts.


Remember there is NO ground water where they are building this in Saudi. This is all Desal. So the hews and cries about running out of water in CA sound a bit silly.

I love many things about CA, I'm sad that one of the most regressive places on earth can some how solve problems that we say are unsolvable, I don't buy it. Western technology is used to solve the water crisis in Saudi and the rest of the middle east, why can't we use our own technology? Our problems are mismanagement, lack of vision, class envy, and distain for certain lifestyles.

Instead of building the future, CA plans to blow that on a choo choo while stamping their feet that there is no water.
Ruth4Truth covered it nicely. I will add that construction costs are higher here too due in part to those pesky OSHA worker safety laws and to the environmental reviews that are required in order to reduce the chances of irreversibly ruining the land by building in the wrong places. Certainly excessive bureaucracy doesn't help. Also as part of the business and economic problem, desal is expensive to run especially when you consider that we will have high quality standards, which always adds to the cost of producing anything.

Blaming the train is something that I disagree with and view as a red herring, since the state needs infrastructure of that type with or without the drought anyway. If you view the CAHSR program as being wasteful and inefficient don't blame the train, blame our current style of business and politics. Should California experience several wet years in a row then following and reversing the point that you made, your excess desal plants would be seen as a waste of money and people would be condemning them as a waste of money that could have gone toward transportation improvements like a Maglev or HSR.

I don't entirely disagree with your post though, I also find it regrettable that there is a "can't do" attitude in politics and government for many necessary upgrades despite the many obstacles that do exist. Californians should have the ability to overcome most of these issues.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ruth4Truth View Post
Well, Saudi Arabia hauls in billions of oil dollars daily, and has no national debt. That could be one reason. They can pay for all the desalination they want. It's also a monarchy, vs. a democracy, so the King can just snap his fingers to make projects happen, and there are no budget constraints, no laws restricting how different segments of the budget can be used. You don't think it might have anything to do with any of those factors, do you?

Oh, and btw, CA does already have a couple of experimental desal plants going. It's not like the Gov can just wave a wand, and make a dozen desal plants appear on the coast. And even if he did, delivery infrastructure would have to be built to get the water to the ag regions where it's needed. Remember, ag uses 80% of the water. Providing desalinated water to coastal communities isn't going to make much difference to the overall shortage.

:
Quoted for easy reference and visibility.
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Old 05-25-2015, 06:25 PM
 
18,172 posts, read 16,311,457 times
Reputation: 9325
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveNotCommute View Post
Ruth4Truth covered it nicely. I will add that construction costs are higher here too due in part to those pesky OSHA worker safety laws and to the environmental reviews that are required in order to reduce the chances of irreversibly ruining the land by building in the wrong places. Certainly excessive bureaucracy doesn't help. Also as part of the business and economic problem, desal is expensive to run especially when you consider that we will have high quality standards, which always adds to the cost of producing anything.

Blaming the train is something that I disagree with and view as a red herring, since the state needs infrastructure of that type with or without the drought anyway. If you view the CAHSR program as being wasteful and inefficient don't blame the train, blame our current style of business and politics. Should California experience several wet years in a row then following and reversing the point that you made, your excess desal plants would be seen as a waste of money and people would be condemning them as a waste of money that could have gone toward transportation improvements like a Maglev or HSR.

I don't entirely disagree with your post though, I also find it regrettable that there is a "can't do" attitude in politics and government for many necessary upgrades despite the many obstacles that do exist. Californians should have the ability to overcome most of these issues.


Quoted for easy reference and visibility.
Desal plants will be needed for increased population in the future. Yes people in CA have kids when they are not at the beach.

Two problems seem to exist. Extreme views and actions by environmental groups and maybe no friends of politicians are set up to make any money off Desal, and will off a High Speed rail project. Follow the money and the road blocks.
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Old 05-25-2015, 07:53 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,500,284 times
Reputation: 16450
The OP's post said they spent 67 Billion Pounds.

Perhaps if CA had an extra $100 Billion laying around we could and perhaps would do the something similar. Also I am sure that terraforming is something that is not applicable on earth. Mars, sure.

My guess is the real solution is for people to give up their lawns and swimming pools and for Ag to use more efficient water systems. Building more dams has no effect on rainfall, so that isn't going to work.

My brother-in-law lives in a newer subdivision in AZ. No one has a lawn or a pool. Go figure.
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Old 05-25-2015, 09:43 PM
 
Location: Newport Coast, California
471 posts, read 599,050 times
Reputation: 1141
5150, perhaps you don't know that most of the water that does fall goes right out to sea.

50% of water goes out to sea, not captured.

Of the remaining 50%

40% is used for Ag (this is where they get the 80% figure)
10% is used for Residential and Business (this is where they get 20%

We drain reservoirs to "protect" the delta smelt, a non native fish that should go extinct in CA as it does not belong here.

You can waste your time on lawns and pools but that constitutes 2% of water use, so what's your plan after that? Makes no difference in water supply. Lawns and pools are cotton candy solutions. It looks big and seems sweet, but really amounts to nothing.

You have to increase the supply, increase capture, improve Ag efficiency, stop growing Alfalfa (that uses more water than every single person in the state combined.)

The point is the Luddites say, "you can't build cities in the desert". Even though coastal CA isn't a desert, you CAN build cities in the desert, quite easily it seems and it is being done in many places. Our water crisis is a dereliction of leadership and a "can't do" attitude.

And BTW, I simply posted the article to show what $100/billion could buy. It can apparently buy a city of luxury for 2 million people with infrastructure and water supply.

In CA, we are blowing 100/billion on a choo choo that won't produce a drop of water or provide housing for more than 2 million people. It's an interesting comparison.

But this is ideological. The "can't do's" will never see a solution, it isn't in their nature. Their minds have been gelded by "era of limits" thinking. It isn't possible for them to imagine increase or creation.

Walt Disney once said, "if it can be imagined, it can be done" and "it's kind of fun to do the impossible". The problem with much of CA's leadership is that there is no imagination left. That is why the only "solutions" that are offered are cuts. Creation is the outcome of imagination and ingenuity. When it comes to water solutions, we are in desperate need of some real imaginative minds that can inspire and create.

Last edited by GoldenZephyr; 05-25-2015 at 09:52 PM..
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Old 05-26-2015, 06:11 AM
 
Location: Bellevue & Seal Beach
768 posts, read 715,723 times
Reputation: 1404
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Vega View Post
Because the Democrat party is in total control of this now wretched state. All state elected offices are held by Democrats and they have totally destroyed this once great state.


Public employee unions provide millions to Democrat campaignes to elect Democrats so thats why public employees have pay twice what comparable jobs in the private sector pays plus retire early with full pay and health care for life.
No wonder theres no money for water piped to Calif. or dams to save what water we do get. Your paying for public employees new houses and cars and vacations.
Absolutely right!!!
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Old 05-26-2015, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,455 posts, read 12,500,284 times
Reputation: 16450
Quote:
Originally Posted by V8 Vega View Post
Because the Democrat party is in total control of this now wretched state. All state elected offices are held by Democrats and they have totally destroyed this once great state.
Public employee unions provide millions to Democrat campaignes to elect Democrats so thats why public employees have pay twice what comparable jobs in the private sector pays plus retire early with full pay and health care for life.
No wonder theres no money for water piped to Calif. or dams to save what water we do get. Your paying for public employees new houses and cars and vacations.
I am sorry, but I work in the public sector and your opinion is offensive to me. I could make twice the pay if I worked in the private sector doing what I do for the County. I will retire in two years at 35% of my present pay rate and my health care for life is called Medicare.

Where do you get your information? Aside from some department heads, I know of no co workers who will retire at full pay with health care for life. And FYI I am a Republican.
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:01 AM
 
Location: Out in the Badlands
10,420 posts, read 10,795,200 times
Reputation: 7801
Quote:
Originally Posted by NewbiePoster View Post
Dude, if you keep spewing baseless statements, somebody might mistake you for a troll. You wouldn't want that to happen, would you?

Oh dear...the truth at times hurts...doesn't it?
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:21 AM
 
10,513 posts, read 5,135,317 times
Reputation: 14056
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenZephyr View Post
We drain reservoirs to "protect" the delta smelt, a non native fish that should go extinct in CA as it does not belong here.
Misleading statement. Some dam releases and river flows are needed to prevent saltwater intrusion into the delta which would ruin farms and vineyards in the delta region. Some dam releases and river flows are needed for salmon.

I've grown weary of the Repub talking point that if we let the smelt die then all of our water problems are solved. For some reason conservative commentators are eager to throw delta farmers and the salmon industry under the bus. Probably because farmers down south have more money and have paid off the right-wing politicians to spread misinformation about the smelt.
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Old 05-26-2015, 10:41 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,639 posts, read 16,183,457 times
Reputation: 19728
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenZephyr View Post
5150, perhaps you don't know that most of the water that does fall goes right out to sea.

50% of water goes out to sea, not captured.

Of the remaining 50%

40% is used for Ag (this is where they get the 80% figure)
10% is used for Residential and Business (this is where they get 20%

We drain reservoirs to "protect" the delta smelt, a non native fish that should go extinct in CA as it does not belong here.

You can waste your time on lawns and pools but that constitutes 2% of water use, so what's your plan after that? Makes no difference in water supply. Lawns and pools are cotton candy solutions. It looks big and seems sweet, but really amounts to nothing.

You have to increase the supply, increase capture, improve Ag efficiency, stop growing Alfalfa (that uses more water than every single person in the state combined.)

The point is the Luddites say, "you can't build cities in the desert". Even though coastal CA isn't a desert, you CAN build cities in the desert, quite easily it seems and it is being done in many places. Our water crisis is a dereliction of leadership and a "can't do" attitude.

And BTW, I simply posted the article to show what $100/billion could buy. It can apparently buy a city of luxury for 2 million people with infrastructure and water supply.

In CA, we are blowing 100/billion on a choo choo that won't produce a drop of water or provide housing for more than 2 million people. It's an interesting comparison.

But this is ideological. The "can't do's" will never see a solution, it isn't in their nature. Their minds have been gelded by "era of limits" thinking. It isn't possible for them to imagine increase or creation.

Walt Disney once said, "if it can be imagined, it can be done" and "it's kind of fun to do the impossible". The problem with much of CA's leadership is that there is no imagination left. That is why the only "solutions" that are offered are cuts. Creation is the outcome of imagination and ingenuity. When it comes to water solutions, we are in desperate need of some real imaginative minds that can inspire and create.
Few topics could bring me back to post again. But I noticed this one and you got me.

The fact that certain things CAN be done doesn't mean they are good ideas or SHOULD be done.

Just because we could capture more water running to the sea, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Just because cities CAN be built in the desert, doesn't mean it's a good idea.

Just because we CAN find ways to overpopulate California doesn't mean it's a good idea to do so.

You DO understand why people flush their toilets, right? The same principle applies in nature. Especially where humans compromise their environment with toxins and general effects of overpopulation pressure. Flushing the Delta isn't meant to protect the smelt, per se. It's meant to save that riparian / wetlands environment on which nearly all Californians depend for our very survival. The smelt campaign was a tool for creating that salvation.

You're welcome.

And the same mechanism of flushing holds true for why / how rain and snowmelt is critical for running through all our rivers, streams, aquifers to the sea - purified as it slowly flows through the soils.

*Flushing sound*

And now back to sailing. Away from idiotic shortsighted arrogance.
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Old 05-26-2015, 11:41 AM
 
Location: SW MO
23,593 posts, read 37,380,935 times
Reputation: 29336
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoNansea View Post
Absolutely right!!!
Almost that entire post, especially what you didn't quote, is absolutely wrong. Go back and read the entire thread. You don't really want to fall into the same, baseless, category, do you?
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