California $15/hr Wage On November Ballot (Redding, Freedom: wages, income tax, living)

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher

That will only keep them afloat in the safety net though right? I still imagine a lot of struggle at the bottom. I don't think that will ever go away.

When has this not been true is all of history?

[Bill the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

When has this not been true is all of history?

I agree.


Ultimately, this whole $15 minimum wage thing will neither hurt not help those at the bottom. We will simply find ourselves demanding $20 minimum wage in 2030.


For some reason people think we need to raise the minimum wage to make things better. But it never does.

[Elliott_CA]

Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher

That will only keep them afloat in the safety net though right?

No, you have it backwards. Once the minimum wage equals the living wage, increasing the wage annually for inflation keeps the working poor one step above the safety net, not in it.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher

I agree.


Ultimately, this whole $15 minimum wage thing will neither hurt not help those at the bottom. We will simply find ourselves demanding $20 minimum wage in 2030.


For some reason people think we need to raise the minimum wage to make things better. But it never does.

Mmm, disagree. It helps keep them from falling even further down the rat hole.

And yes, of course it needs to be raised again and again. Our monetary / economic system requires inflation to be healthy. Everything has to continually struggle up.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Elliott_CA

No, you have it backwards. Once the minimum wage equals the living wage, increasing the wage annually for inflation keeps the working poor one step above the safety net, not in it.

Once again, I prognosticate that soon we will necessarily evolve to Basic Income Guarantee (B.I.G.) / Guaranteed Minimum Income (G.M.I.) for all persons, regardless of working at all.

The intelligence of this concept is agreed upon by conservative, liberal, and libertarian economists. It WILL happen. It has to. It works by eliminating every other kind of social safety net (except health care). All welfare: gone.

[Bill the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

Once again, I prognosticate that soon we will necessarily evolve to Basic Income Guarantee (B.I.G.) / Guaranteed Minimum Income (G.M.I.) for all persons, regardless of working at all.

The intelligence of this concept is agreed upon by conservative, liberal, and libertarian economists. It WILL happen. It has to. It works by eliminating every other kind of social safety net (except health care). All welfare: gone.

Wouldn't B.I.G. be a form of welfare? And therefore all welfare would not be gone?

[Bill the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Elliott_CA

No, you have it backwards. Once the minimum wage equals the living wage, increasing the wage annually for inflation keeps the working poor one step above the safety net, not in it.

At this level is it predicted that the working poor will no longer be receiving and qualifying for welfare? If so I agree. But I have a hard time believing that even with the increases annually the majority of the working poor will not still qualify for welfare. That would mean they are still very much in the safety net.


And even if they are not receiving benefits. They are still likely making the same income as they were when receiving the benefits. Which would mean nothing has changed. They are still just as poor.


For example:


Worker now: Makes $1200 a month + receives $800 a month in welfare benefits = $2000 a month income


Worker in 5 years: Makes $2000 a month + receives $0 a month in welfare (does not qualify) = $2000 a month income.

[Tulemutt]

Originally Posted by Bill the Butcher

Wouldn't B.I.G. be a form of welfare? And therefore all welfare would not be gone?

No, not welfare. Not at all. You'll find it fascinating to read about. The Guaranteed Minimum will be allocated to every citizen regardless of other income. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet would receive the same as Joe Sixpack and Jane Muscatel. It is projected to provide a living minimum base from which base each recipient can then either merely survive off the streets in shelter with beans and rice, or lever up through part-time or full time work, be it skilled or unskilled. Alcoholic unemployed, burger flippers, bus drivers, plumbers, software code writers, physicians, lawyers, Wall Street bankers - all will get the exact same guaranteed minimum. Economic studies project that it will cost less than all current forms of welfare when totaled in the budget. That's how it gets paid for. Very impressive.

[Bill the Butcher]

Originally Posted by Tulemutt

No, not welfare. Not at all. You'll find it fascinating to read about. The Guaranteed Minimum will be allocated to every citizen regardless of other income. Bill Gates and Warren Buffet would receive the same as Joe Sixpack and Jane Muscatel. It is projected to provide a living minimum base from which base each recipient can then either merely survive off the streets in shelter with beans and rice, or lever up through part-time or full time work, be it skilled or unskilled. Alcoholic unemployed, burger flippers, bus drivers, plumbers, software code writers, physicians, lawyers, Wall Street bankers - all will get the exact same guaranteed minimum. Economic studies project that it will cost less than all current forms of welfare when totaled in the budget. That's how it gets paid for. Very impressive.

I fail to see how this changes any thing then. If every single citizen receives this extra minimum income, then how in the heck would those at the lower end ever move up? Those working minimum wage jobs and receiving the BIG benefit are still competing with those making a dollar or two over minimum wage and also receiving the BIG benefit. And those making a couple bucks over minimum wage and receiving the BIG benefit compete with those making several dollars over minimum and receiving the BIG benefit. And
it goes on and on all the way up to the millionaires.


I have not read deeply into it yet, but I find it hard to believe this will solve the problem. A problem in which I believe likely has not solution to begin with.

[sourdough]

Better build a BIG wall before in acting B.I.G.