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Old 04-02-2016, 08:51 PM
 
Location: NNJ
15,023 posts, read 9,983,177 times
Reputation: 17139

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Perma Bear View Post
They must be living an extravagant life if they're spending 100 a day. I probably spend 3 dollars a day on my daily routine.
One... it was a hypothetical.

Two... $100 day in the scenario wasn't spending money. It is total cost of attaining enough quality living to show up to work healthy, clothed, and able.

Three... it was hypothetical... with the importance not in the numbers themselves but in the concept of where the difference between the hypothetical cost of living versus minimum wage comes from.

I'm pretty sure your rent, food, bills, etc.. don't sum up to $3 bucks a day for the 20 days of work in a month. If you are saying that's your take home, then you don't even come remotely close to poverty... and that's something that you shouldn't be proud of. The NYC homeless beggars on the street do better than you.


Last edited by usayit; 04-02-2016 at 09:00 PM..
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Old 04-02-2016, 09:12 PM
 
4,369 posts, read 3,695,276 times
Reputation: 2479
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
One... it was a hypothetical.

Two... $100 day in the scenario wasn't spending money. It is total cost of attaining enough quality living to show up to work healthy, clothed, and able.

Three... it was hypothetical... with the importance not in the numbers themselves but in the concept of where the difference between the hypothetical cost of living versus minimum wage comes from.

I'm pretty sure your rent, food, bills, etc.. don't sum up to $3 bucks a day for the 20 days of work in a month. If you are saying that's your take home, then you don't even come remotely close to poverty... and that's something that you shouldn't be proud of. The NYC homeless beggars on the street do better than you.

No I live at home, I'm not suckered into paying rent.
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Old 04-03-2016, 05:13 AM
 
Location: NNJ
15,023 posts, read 9,983,177 times
Reputation: 17139
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perma Bear View Post
No I live at home, I'm not suckered into paying rent.
lol.... good for you smooching off parents You still missed the point.

btw... you are not living off of $3 a day... your parents are paying for it.
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Old 04-03-2016, 05:47 AM
 
1,099 posts, read 894,719 times
Reputation: 734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zelva View Post
chirp, chirp, Tuleman.....

I think you may mean to point out that the youth minimum wage is necessary to the (artificially HIGH) 'adult' minimum wage - else the youth unemployment would be intolerable, and politicians and big labor would have to fuss and 'look busy' again.

Australian youth unemployment is (12.2) double+ adult unemployment (5.8), even with the youth wage.

(Back to here, and, not to mention the participation rate.....) CA unemployment rate is 5.5%; youth unemployment July 2015, 12.2% - so, I guess we better get busy with that salvaging youth wage!!

Is CA Youth Wage bill in the hopper, man? So CA can "flourish" (like AU) before we SLUMP?


Wage increase no good for youth: ACCI | SBS News (Australia)

ACCI spokesperson Patricia Forsythe said the 730,000 Australians out of work, including 250,000 young people, need a "job-friendly" approach to the minimum wage.

"In setting the minimum wage, the Fair Work Commission must avoid impeding access to jobs or training opportunities, which can set people on a path to higher pay later in life."

Youth unemployment is at 12.2 per cent, Ms Forsythe said, more than double the national unemployment rate of 5.8 per cent.


I won't post the link to article about more CA moving to TX on business-friendly and retirement COL issues..... So maybe there won't be so many CA workers to contend with in the near future.
Zelva,

I'm surprised you'd let yourself get pigeonholed into a conversation about Australia. It's a very easy cherry pick for people that support some sort of minimum wage. It's no different than advocates of gun control pointing to England and then ignoring Mexico. I would suggest while you're looking up information, make sure you check out countries like Spain, Greece, and South Africa (you'll find them in the 25% unemployment category). And then check out Switzerland (with no minimum wage laws). Have fun with it. The topic downright bores me to death. It's not even worth a conversation. And the OP was clearly just having fun anyway.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:14 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,564 posts, read 16,072,372 times
Reputation: 19587
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
Zelva,

I'm surprised you'd let yourself get pigeonholed into a conversation about Australia. It's a very easy cherry pick for people that support some sort of minimum wage. It's no different than advocates of gun control pointing to England and then ignoring Mexico. I would suggest while you're looking up information, make sure you check out countries like Spain, Greece, and South Africa (you'll find them in the 25% unemployment category). And then check out Switzerland (with no minimum wage laws). Have fun with it. The topic downright bores me to death. It's not even worth a conversation. And the OP was clearly just having fun anyway.
There are quite a lot of countries with minimum wages higher than the US to use in analysis. Although, it is also true that, when using PPP valuations for comparisons, the difference between US and the other countries' wage levels generally narrows significantly. But the take away from these comparisons is that employment levels are not negatively affected by minimum wage hikes alone in higher wage countries. Negative economic factors in countries such as Spain and Greece have many other roots. Meanwhile we see prosperous countries such as Germany, Denmark, Canada, Australia and others riding high in terms of corporate profitability and wages, and low in unemployment. What this means in relation to the topic here and the persistent pessimistic predictions of doom is: it's a complex matrix, but one that has opportunities and solutions. We know this because it does work in a number of other complex industrialized nations. Absolutist negative prognostication is without absolute merit.
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Old 04-03-2016, 10:52 AM
 
Location: West Hollywood, CA
1,365 posts, read 2,233,923 times
Reputation: 1859
Quote:
Originally Posted by the topper View Post
They should raise the minimum wage to $31 an hour in California by 2018 and raise the standard of living and guard against the high cost of housing/rent in big cities in state. I even think all major businesses can afford it by putting the cap on middle man and the salary of executives. They should rein in the cost of management and spend the money on employees. So whatever job you take or like should not be a burden to you. Forget $15 an hour and raise it to over $30 and everyone can afford it if they manage their businesses right. What do you think?
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:26 PM
 
1,099 posts, read 894,719 times
Reputation: 734


There are seven European Union (E.U.) countries in which no minimum wage is mandated (Austria, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy, and Sweden). If we compare the levels of unemployment in these countries with E.U. countries that impose a minimum wage, the results are clear. A minimum wage leads to higher levels of unemployment. In the 21 countries with a minimum wage, the average country has an unemployment rate of 11.8%. Whereas, the average unemployment rate in the seven countries without mandated minimum wages is about one third lower — at 7.9%.

This point is even more pronounced when we look at rates of unemployment among the E.U.’s youth — defined as those younger than 25 years of age (see the accompanying chart).



In the twenty-one E.U. countries where there are minimum wage laws, 27.7% of the youth demographic — more than one in four young adults — was unemployed in 2012. This is considerably higher than the youth unemployment rate in the seven E.U. countries without minimum wage laws — 19.5% in 2012 — a gap that has only widened since the Lehman Brothers collapse in 2008.

The glowing claims about minimum wage laws don’t pass the most basic economic tests.
So, minimum wage laws — while advertised under the banner of social justice — do not live up to the claims made by those who tout them. They do not lift low wage earners to a so-called “social minimum”. Indeed, minimum wage laws — imposed at the levels employed in Europe — push a considerable number of people into unemployment. And, unless those newly unemployed qualify for government assistance (read: welfare), they will sink below, or further below, the social minimum.

As Nobelist Milton Friedman correctly quipped, “A minimum wage law is, in reality, a law that makes it illegal for an employer to hire a person with limited skills.”

Perhaps, Prof. Friedman said it best when he concluded that “The real tragedy of minimum wage laws is that they are supported by well-meaning groups who want to reduce poverty. But the people who are hurt most by high minimums are the most poverty stricken.”
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:48 AM
 
30,855 posts, read 36,746,227 times
Reputation: 34384
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
Minimum wages are set low with the assumption that the gap is the responsibility of the tax payer. I have a problem with that.
I have a problem with this whole assumption.

There are a lot more reasons why people are dependent on the taxpayers than minimum wage. It's not fair to put all the blame on business that earn low profit margins. It's a superficial response that doesn't address many different underlying problems including, but not limited to:

--A 40% out of wedlock birth rate, which even liberal researchers admit is a disaster for parents & children alike:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...JqU_story.html

--Crappy schools. And don't tell me all the problems with schools will be fixed if we just spend more money.

--Allowing illegal immigration, which forces wages down for the lower paid, lower skill jobs (and also makes people more dependent on the taxpayers).

--A general cultural attitude that favors instant gratification, which works against economic success and prosperity, as documented in The Triple Package, once again, researched and written by presumably liberal leaning university professors.
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:08 AM
 
17,383 posts, read 11,889,190 times
Reputation: 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by usayit View Post
Let say it costs $100 per day for an individual to show up to work clothed, cleaned, healthy and able. Minimum wages only pay $58 and that individual must "take" from government assistance (tax dollars) in order to keep showing up to work clothed cleaned, healthy, and able. Then that business is essentially passing the cost of $42 a day to the tax payers.

I have a problem with that. IMO, this hypothetical business shouldn't be in business because it can no longer afford to operate.

It goes both ways... Market decides if the job is worth 7.25 an hour AND the market should decide (without tax dollars influence) what person is worth $7.25 an hour. If the person is worth 7.25 an hour and that equates to a lazy high school kid or a homeless person off the street, then that is exactly what the business should employ. Critics of the concept of living wages seem to forget the other side of market driven labor.

My point is that living and minimum wages have different concepts on where it is applied and measurements/calculations that are involved. Minimum wages are generally set by decree of a bunch of politicians in a room.... there is no requirement to have it derived from some sort of calculation.
Why is that the only option? Why doesn't that individual get another job? Get a roommate or two? Find a cheaper place to live. Better themselves so that they make more than minimum wage? The individual is the one "costing" the taxpayer, because they refuse to explore and implement other options.

You are completely confused as to what the purpose of a business is. It is NOT to provide a living for anyone. It is to pay a person a wage based on their experience, performance and how many other people are willing and able to perform that job.
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Old 04-04-2016, 11:16 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,564 posts, read 16,072,372 times
Reputation: 19587
First we read:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post
Zelva,
It's a very easy cherry pick for people that support some sort of minimum wage. ... The topic downright bores me to death. It's not even worth a conversation.
Lol. Day later:
Quote:
Originally Posted by bodyforlife99 View Post

There are seven European Union (E.U.) countries in which no minimum wage is mandated (Austria, Cyprus, Denmark, Finland, Germany, Italy, and Sweden). If we compare the levels of unemployment in these countries with E.U. countries that impose a minimum wage, the results are clear. A minimum wage leads to higher levels of unemployment. In the 21 countries with a minimum wage, the average country has an unemployment rate of 11.8%. Whereas, the average unemployment rate in the seven countries without mandated minimum wages is about one third lower — at 7.9%.

This point is even more pronounced when we look at rates of unemployment among the E.U.’s youth — defined as those younger than 25 years of age (see the accompanying chart).



In the twenty-one E.U. countries where there are minimum wage laws, 27.7% of the youth demographic — more than one in four young adults — was unemployed in 2012. This is considerably higher than the youth unemployment rate in the seven E.U. countries without minimum wage laws — 19.5% in 2012 — a gap that has only widened since the Lehman Brothers collapse in 2008.

The glowing claims about minimum wage laws don’t pass the most basic economic tests.
So, minimum wage laws — while advertised under the banner of social justice — do not live up to the claims made by those who tout them. They do not lift low wage earners to a so-called “social minimum”. Indeed, minimum wage laws — imposed at the levels employed in Europe — push a considerable number of people into unemployment. And, unless those newly unemployed qualify for government assistance (read: welfare), they will sink below, or further below, the social minimum.

As Nobelist Milton Friedman correctly quipped, “A minimum wage law is, in reality, a law that makes it illegal for an employer to hire a person with limited skills.”

Perhaps, Prof. Friedman said it best when he concluded that “The real tragedy of minimum wage laws is that they are supported by well-meaning groups who want to reduce poverty. But the people who are hurt most by high minimums are the most poverty stricken.”
Mirth aside, you have often presented yourself in other threads as being strictly logical. You don't recognize here that you haven't presented a single shred of causation for all your correlation? Not a whit. Your analysis is certainly intriguing and begs notice. But falls entirely short of proof. You have made some absolutist conclusions without any logical exercise. In fact, the existence of high minimum wages and low unemployment coupled with successful corporate profitability in a number of countries worldwide entirely disproves your declaration: "the results are clear. A minimum wage leads to higher levels of unemployment."

There may be [high minimum wage] causative factors at work in conjunction with other factors existing in some places that are not identically present in other, more successful countries, but high minimum wage is clearly not a single, absolute cause for high rates of unemployment.

Rather than parse out every mention in your post, I'll just make a few notations below of how flawed your argument is in this case:

- you're using data which is less than up to date (2012), which doesn't make it meaningless, but does make it less meaningful

- Germany, btw, DOES have a minimum wage now, and considerably higher than the American wage

- most, if not all (I didn't check Cypress) of the countries you cite as not having minimum wage laws, DO HAVE other wage controls - that are negotiated by industry / unions where unions in Europe are in near total control of labor. The net result of those negotiated wage controls are actually WAY higher than minimum wages in other coutries that impose them. For example Denmark has a wage floor for fast food that exceeds $20 an hour, exceeded only by Switzerland where the average fast food worker earns about $25 an hour. Italy, Sweden and other countries are also controlled by these agreements with unions. This reality would prove exactly the opposite of your claim.

- many of the European countries you take aim at also have been experiencing a variety of catastrophic economic errors, events, and political faux pas not connected to minimum wage in any way. Including massive immigration, legal and illegal, of mostly uneducated, unskilled workers flooding into the labor markets while sapping welfare resources that otherwise burden national budgets which in turn sap government spending that affects employment. Including unsupportable government spending in areas other than employment, which depresses the national economies. Low productivity of manufacturing. Unbearable debt ratios which depress the economies .... etc etc etc.

Here are a few links to back up what I have just presented:
Quote:
Comparing the minimum wages of different countries is a difficult task. The different countries have different laws and enforcement mechanisms, with some setting minimum wages by region, while others do it by industry. Some let management and workers set the minimum wage by way of a collective bargaining agreement. Others also have a graduated system in which the minimum wage depends on the age range of an individual.The Top 10 Countries with the Highest Minimum Wages - TheRichest
Quote:
The 200.000 Jobs That Did NOT Disappear

As expected, the plan to introduce a minimum wage was met with alarmist warnings from mainstream economist headquarters. For example, in their joint spring 2014 forecast, the German economic institutes warned of 200.000 jobs being destroyed and of a visible and immediate increase in unemployment from January 2015 onwards. However, what happened is the exact opposite. Unemployment in Germany has not increased but continues to go down instead. It fell by 250.000 from over 3m in January to 2.7m in July 2015 (latest available data).
Moreover, comparing this year’s trend with the previous year shows that unemployment has actually been falling at a faster pace after the minimum wage was introduced. As can be seen from the graph below, the number of unemployed has fallen at a rate between 3.3% and 4.3% each month between January 2015 and July 2015 (compared with the number of unemployed in the same month of the previous year). https://www.socialeurope.eu/2015/09/...-a-job-killer/
Quote:
Denmark has no minimum-wage law. But Mr. Elofsson’s $20 an hour is the lowest the fast-food industry can pay under an agreement between Denmark’s 3F union, the nation’s largest, and the Danish employers group Horesta, which includes Burger King, McDonald’s, Starbucks and other restaurant and hotel companies.
By contrast, fast-food wages in the United States are so low that half of the nation’s fast-food workers rely on some form of public assistance, a study from the University of California, Berkeley found. American fast-food workers earn an average of $8.90 an hour.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/10/28/bu...ants.html?_r=1
I am not saying that the $15 minimum wage jump will be successful in every intention. Nor that it won't have some negative, unintended consequences. I am pointing out that solutions exist to challenges as proven historically.

The assumption expressed by numerous posters here that the sky will fall and businesses should just roll over is ludicrous. To exist is to be challenged. Survival is a continual process.

Oh, and name-dropping Milton Friedman is a highly controversial endorsement you should probably avoid in this discussion.
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