Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 04-05-2016, 10:37 AM
 
32,796 posts, read 12,086,386 times
Reputation: 14623

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
I said, "where they have a thriving business with market demand that experiences a surmountable competitive challenge". And yeah, under those conditions any businessman who is afraid to rise to a manageable challenge is a wuss.
Granted....but that surmountable competitive challenge should be coming from the private sector, not government policy (unless the safety of the workplace is the concern).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 04-05-2016, 10:51 AM
 
32,796 posts, read 12,086,386 times
Reputation: 14623
Quote:
Originally Posted by CCbaxter View Post
And your entire argument is that these businesses exist in a vacuum. American companies are sitting on over 1 TRILLION in cash reserves. So, if one company raises prices or cuts service, another company may use a different model, maybe spend some of that cash on R&D and attract more customers than the other company whose unimaginative response was to raise prices and/or cut service. This is truly the invisible hand of the marketplace that righties like to think cures all ills. But I guess not in this case.



But much of that 1 Trillion plus is offshore, and subject to up to a 35% tax. If Obama instituted a one time tax holiday, all of that money could come back and things might be different.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 11:00 AM
 
Location: Orange County, CA
807 posts, read 891,135 times
Reputation: 1391
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyGatz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by O.A.Bachlow View Post
Give more money to the working poor and they will spend more. Money has to be current...currency like the current of a river must be flowing or it is stale and useless...static stored cash has never been of any benefit to society at large. You can't run a business by paying those who operate your business earning less than a living wage. If you have slaves - you have to sustain and take care of your slaves and their families...it is your duty as a master in business. You want to be successful and have loyal employees - You have to be loyal to them...it is a two way street...It is called GOOD business.
Your entire argument is based on the assumption that businesses won't just raise prices alongside the new wages. But inflation is always occurring. Employers are not just going to suffer lost capital due to the rise in wages--they pass the burden onto the consumers through higher prices and also onto their staff, by downsizing and less hiring.
How is that his assumption? He mentioned giving employees a "living wage," the very definition of which necessarily adjusts with inflation. It takes a cheapskate manager to use inflation as an excuse to cut quality of worker compensation while matching prices to other increasing input costs.

If anything, what you've just posted here is that small business are fated to downsize even if minimum wages are not raised, because inflation alone will have the same effect? Then why run a business at all if inflation will definitely sink it in a few years? That's just silly and no matter how dense and incompetent the worst shopkeepers may be, I just can't imagine any of them just letting higher input prices sink their ship without a fight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
I'll add one more: no more tipping from customers. I know there are many waiters that make much more than $15 an hour during busy shifts. But if their customer knows they make that much money, what would be the incentive to tip? I know I'd stop tipping.

I'd also demand MUCH more competence from minimum wage workers. Now, I might pawn it off on the fact they "only make $8 an hour". But if you're making double that, you BET I'm going to hold your feet to the fire. Checking out your smart phone instead of taking care of customers? I'll complain to management. Screw up my order? I'll complain to management.

You want to get paid like the big boys, you better act like the big boys.
Your post reads like this: If legal minimum wage stays the same, people could justifiably tip less because the waiters are taking in far more income than you expected, thanks to overcompensating tips. Yet at the same time if minimum wages go up customers should straight up stop tipping because workers are taking in more income than you think they should. Sounds like you've set up a game of thermonuclear war for restaurant servers everywhere. But if forced to choose, it sounds better to have the higher guaranteed base wage.

At any rate, you also sound like it is normal to expect substandard service. In California, we made exceptions and allow for crappy service mainly because we know that their wages relative to COL are too low. Now that they are seeing an increase in wages, the customers don't have to subsidize restaurant management, at least until inflation catches up. Customers can tip for quality of service without the charity correction, which is the universal normal. Just don't punish the truly good workers over political issues, that kind of emotion-based economics makes the customer a part of what makes raising prices for inflation so unpredictable for business owners, ie. becoming part of the problem.

So in short, it sounds like front line restaurant workers will have one fewer distraction and better incentive to focus on their work. I for one am looking forward to seeing higher quality of service across the board myself. If it doesn't happen, what's the next excuse going to be? Maybe it'll be whining, maybe it'll be new, truly shady business practices coming public.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 11:22 AM
 
32,796 posts, read 12,086,386 times
Reputation: 14623
Quote:
Originally Posted by DriveNotCommute View Post
So in short, it sounds like front line restaurant workers will have one fewer distraction and better incentive to focus on their work.

Better incentive to focus on their work? Really? As a matter of personal pride, people should give 100% effort all the time. If they aren't, then they weren't raised properly.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 11:43 AM
 
Location: On the water.
21,564 posts, read 16,062,110 times
Reputation: 19586
Quote:
Originally Posted by GatsbyGatz View Post
Your entire argument is based on the assumption that businesses won't just raise prices alongside the new wages. But inflation is always occurring. Employers are not just going to suffer lost capital due to the rise in wages--they pass the burden onto the consumers through higher prices and also onto their staff, by downsizing and less hiring.
So what? Businesses always raise prices and restrict hiring to bare minimums. That's the nature of the beast. Always has been. Smart, successful businesses carry minimum employees at all times. They don't hire to be gracious benefactors to the community.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 12:11 PM
 
Location: On the water.
21,564 posts, read 16,062,110 times
Reputation: 19586
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Having the government set wages is not even close to surmountable, or a competitive challenge. It sets a precedent, and when inflation sets in, the government can (and will) just raise the MW again. Because it's not based on economics, and is based on emotion and vote seeking, they have no qualms about raising it higher and higher and higher. And because they have the weight and might of the government behind them, they can get away with it.

What business can protect themselves from a self-serving, over-reaching government?
News flash: mandated minimum wages have been set by government for many many years. It's not a new law thingy. And businesses have been thriving all the while. And yes, the government does, appropriately, reset new higher minimum wages periodically. That's required. Industry won't do it on their own certainly.

Also curious why we so often read people holding business interests higher than social interests? What about business is more important than the well being of society? Does society exist for the benefit of business owners?
Quote:
Originally Posted by ringwise View Post
Everyone is conveniently ignoring the elephant in the room. Union wages are tied to minimum wage. Raise MW, and you raise union wages. Which becomes a viscous cycle of paybacks.
You are apparently unaware that in a number of countries in Europe, unions set the industry minimum wages - at much higher levels than in America - and the workers prosper as well as the industries.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 12:44 PM
 
Location: San Diego
50,056 posts, read 46,553,810 times
Reputation: 33893


Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 01:01 PM
 
12,823 posts, read 24,274,772 times
Reputation: 11039
Default Missing the Forest for the Trees

People all caught up in political polarization are missing the real story here.

The real story is, COL is way, way too high in the coastal, liberal urban and suburban areas.

Meanwhile, un and underemployment are horrendous in the lower COL inland areas.

And ne'er the twain shall meet ... unless:

1) People and businesses are heavily incentivized if not coerced into moving inland.

2) More housing and other COL reducers are promoted by the coast.

3) Something overt is done to promote more middle income (most especially, manufacturing) jobs in all areas (hint - take AB32 and shove it).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 01:43 PM
 
1,664 posts, read 3,938,650 times
Reputation: 1878
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
Gov. Jerry Brown Signs $15 Minimum Wage Law | KTLA

I wonder how many businesses today have started making plans to move to Texas and other business friendly states?

I suspect two things will happen, or even both. Prices to consumers will go up, as always. Or, the number of employees will drop. If an employer has 5 employees making say $10 an hour. He will now have 4 employees making $15/hour. The extra cash has to come from somewhere as the Employer is not gonna take a pay cut.


Even, Jerry Brown said yesterday this might not make sense economically, but, signed the bill anyway! I wonder how much the wage for servers will be on his bullet train?


On a different subject with regards to eateries. Have you seen the number of employees at Chipolte restaurants? Before the health scare they have people falling all over themselves at the grill, the back kitchen and serving the food. I would say the average they had maybe about 12 working. Now, with all the food cooked offsite the employee number is half that. Hey give them all $15/hour!!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 04-05-2016, 01:48 PM
 
17,383 posts, read 11,885,796 times
Reputation: 16120
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt View Post
News flash: mandated minimum wages have been set by government for many many years. It's not a new law thingy. And businesses have been thriving all the while. And yes, the government does, appropriately, reset new higher minimum wages periodically. That's required. Industry won't do it on their own certainly.

Also curious why we so often read people holding business interests higher than social interests? What about business is more important than the well being of society? Does society exist for the benefit of business owners?

You are apparently unaware that in a number of countries in Europe, unions set the industry minimum wages - at much higher levels than in America - and the workers prosper as well as the industries.
Europe is prospering? News to me.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > California

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top