Where does all that money collected by outrageous taxes, fees, fines, and costs go in California? (insurance, employment)
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Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Yo bro! There you go again with the "should's". Easy does it now. Bubba, I was in the military longer than you. Seven years active and 15 Ready Reserve retired. And I know damn well that nearly everyone who joins the service likes the idea of being respected for their service, but in fact joined for the decent pay, terrific benefits, training, security, adventure. Serving Uncle Sam is way down the list for most. Way down.
With respect to my fellow veteran, you also joined in a different era, when many were being drafted. Also my family was well off when I joined, so it was assumed that I would go to college and get a good job, paid for by my family. I joined because it was what I wanted to do. Unfortunately my dad lost the high paying job while I was in. But when I made the decision, we were upper class.
Everybody complains about pay in the military but the bottom line is that we're there to serve our country, not to make a lot of money. Plus most -- not me and apparently not you -- were far too far to the right to support unions.
Quote:
Reality will set you free, brother. Give it a shot. It's not bad out here at all, free of the burdens of "should" and "supposed ta".
lol but then I wouldn't want to make any political changes or vote.
btw to become a submariner actually requires 12 months of training. In addition to Basic Training, A School and Basic Enlisted Submarine School (24 weeks altogether), to remain on the submarine crew one must become Qualified in Submarines; it takes months of study and requires one to pass a board interview with one officer and two enlisted personnel. The same knowledge is required of both officers and enlisted. If you do not become qualified in nine months after being assigned to the first submarine, you are "delinquent"; if you don't achieve it in one year, you are subject to being sent to the surface fleet for lack of intellectual skill.
Seriously, it's a job an 18 year old kid with little formal education can be trained to do and in addition, you get paid and get free room and board while you are learning it. There is no scenario in which an 18 year old 'sonar technician' should get paid anything close to what a Police Officer, Firefighter or public Accountant is paid, so quit kidding yourself.
And if the military couldn't find cannon fodder for what they pay, they would raise the wages, that's how it works.
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy
Seriously, it's a job an 18 year old kid with little formal education can be trained to do
Yes, but it takes a year of training. Being a submariner is analogous to having an associate's degree. Edit: the military requires a high school diploma also.
Quote:
There is no scenario in which an 18 year old 'sonar technician' should get paid anything close to what a Police Officer, Firefighter or public Accountant is paid, so quit kidding yourself.
ok, then explain why Accountants serving the State of California are paid more than a US Navy SEAL officer? Remember, the officer's job requires a college degree. Many accountants working for the state are also paid more than the Engineering Officer on a submarine.
Explain it other than just the simple fact that the salary of the State Accountant is the result of the union having extorted said salary from the state.
Last edited by neutrino78x; 07-16-2016 at 11:56 PM..
With respect to my fellow veteran, you also joined in a different era, when many were being drafted. Also my family was well off when I joined, so it was assumed that I would go to college and get a good job, paid for by my family. I joined because it was what I wanted to do. Unfortunately my dad lost the high paying job while I was in. But when I made the decision, we were upper class.
Everybody complains about pay in the military but the bottom line is that we're there to serve our country, not to make a lot of money. Plus most -- not me and apparently not you -- were far too far to the right to support unions.
Our eras don't have anything to do with what I said about why people join. In fact, as a military retiree I am still using various base facilities all the time. I have a boat slip at a base marina in San Diego, for example. I am around young military, and in the commissaries, exchanges, laundromats, and gyms and bowling alleys and shower houses all the time. I am completely up to date on contemporary military life. These kids are joining for the pay, the training, the security, the adventure - oh yeah, and the service to Uncle.
Why YOU joined, individually, is not the point. Why MOST join is the point. Anyway, they ALL join "because they wanted to" - it's all volunteer now. They wanted the benefits of service. If you are a pure altruist patriot, well fine and good. My point stands: reality rules and you are an exception to that rule. I joined to escape Minnesota and have an adventure. That simple. Happy to serve Sam doing it. Though while dodging bullets it did occur to me that Peace Corps probably would have been a better choice. Then, after my tours overseas were done, I got out and wanted no more. Till a year or so later and I figured a Ready Reserve career would make sense. So I did it. Because it was sensible. Not because it was service. It was completely obvious to me, as Sleepy is pointing out also, that I was just a piece of meat to Uncle. And, frankly, I was not much different than a paid thug. An assassin working for guys back east in suits and ties who didn't want to get their own hands dirty or bloody. I love my country all right. But I'll let you do all the flag waving. Most military operations are pretty suspect as to real service intent. Service to who? Heh.
Quote:
Originally Posted by neutrino78x
Plus most -- not me and apparently not you -- were far too far to the right to support unions.
lol but then I wouldn't want to make any political changes or vote.
Um, no. I think unions are important to a good society.
And I do vote, in spite of my being a logical realist.
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,375 posts, read 4,067,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tulemutt
Um, no. I think unions are important to a good society.
I agree. I was saying that most people who served would disagree with us; unfortunately most are to the right, lol. Liberal veterans are unfortunately the minority
But, the one place where I do not support unions is government service. They should be paid what the government can afford to pay and not a dime more. If they want a big paycheck they should join the private sector, where I do support unions.
Yes, but it takes a year of training. Being a submariner is analogous to having an associate's degree. Edit: the military requires a high school diploma also.
ok, then explain why Accountants serving the State of California are paid more than a US Navy SEAL officer? Remember, the officer's job requires a college degree. Many accountants working for the state are also paid more than the Engineering Officer on a submarine.
Explain it other than just the simple fact that the salary of the State Accountant is the result of the union having extorted said salary from the state.
A think a better comparison may be that of a commissioned officer to those jobs mentioned in the civilian sector
Location: "Silicon Valley" (part of San Francisco Bay Area, California, USA)
4,375 posts, read 4,067,017 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tikkasf
A think a better comparison may be that of a commissioned officer to those jobs mentioned in the civilian sector
No, my point was that the state servants are paid too much because they have a union that can extort a high salary. So we compare military job requiring a degree to State of California job requiring a degree.
The Navy SEALs have officers. Naval aviators (fighter pilots) are currently all officers. The Engineering Officer on a submarine is an officer. All these jobs require college degrees. Yet there are servants of the State of California making more than the military officers because their union extorted the salary.
The Engineering Officer operates the nuclear reactor and is responsible, under the XO and CO, for the engineering aspects of the submarine. They are required to have a degree -- usually they have a degree in physics -- be Qualified in Submarines (same exact thing that I have), and have nuclear power training (enlisted men who work on the reactor also have this training). They're down there risking their lives for their country, hundreds of feet underwater.
Fighter pilots are also risking their lives, flying faster than the speed of sound and dropping bombs and firing missiles, potentially being shot down. Their job is deemed by the Navy to require a college degree. An O-1 fighter pilot (the most junior officer rank is O-1) makes less than many servants of the State of California.
Yet this guy sitting at a desk, pushing paper for the state, makes more.
We need to remove the ability of government servants to negotiate salary and benefits, and remove their ability to strike. In all positions. If it is good enough for the military, it is good enough for servants of the State of California.
No, my point was that the state servants are paid too much because they have a union that can extort a high salary. So we compare military job requiring a degree to State of California job requiring a degree.
The Navy SEALs have officers. Naval aviators (fighter pilots) are currently all officers. The Engineering Officer on a submarine is an officer. All these jobs require college degrees. Yet there are servants of the State of California making more than the military officers because their union extorted the salary.
The Engineering Officer operates the nuclear reactor and is responsible, under the XO and CO, for the engineering aspects of the submarine. They are required to have a degree -- usually they have a degree in physics -- be Qualified in Submarines (same exact thing that I have), and have nuclear power training (enlisted men who work on the reactor also have this training). They're down there risking their lives for their country, hundreds of feet underwater.
Fighter pilots are also risking their lives, flying faster than the speed of sound and dropping bombs and firing missiles, potentially being shot down. Their job is deemed by the Navy to require a college degree. An O-1 fighter pilot (the most junior officer rank is O-1) makes less than many servants of the State of California.
Yet this guy sitting at a desk, pushing paper for the state, makes more.
We need to remove the ability of government servants to negotiate salary and benefits, and remove their ability to strike. In all positions. If it is good enough for the military, it is good enough for servants of the State of California.
Have you researched administrative managerial pay is in some of these public employee positions ?.....these are non union positions. One does not join military for the salary scale offered,.....specially those who choose it as a career....such as a commissioned officer.
Frankly, perhaps you should give some thought to what another poster alluded to on the SF-Bay Area sub forum in response to some of your postings there......
We need to remove the ability of government servants to negotiate salary and benefits, and remove their ability to strike. In all positions. If it is good enough for the military, it is good enough for servants of the State of California.
As soon as the government starts offering free food, housing, medical care and college tuition to it's employees we can talk about this again, until then there is no comparison. And once again, you can't compare a job requiring 12 weeks of tech school to a job requiring a college degree, not even if that is an associates degree.
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