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Old 12-04-2016, 04:11 PM
 
2,272 posts, read 1,061,851 times
Reputation: 1758

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I am very surprised by the end results of the above four propositions on the ballot this year.

Regarding prop 62 and 66. I always thought the death penalty would be over with in California with the state leaning ever so leftward and the death penalty having been constantly under fire for cruel and unusual punishment for more than a decade and almost no one had been executed doing the last ten years Its really just costing massive amounts of taxpayer money nowadays with not much positive results.

Though I am even more surprised by the results of prop 67 as in every grocery store I been to around the state even ones in the most progressive coastal regions at least 85%-95% of the customers would "vote" for plastic bags at the checkout counter when they are presented with a choice. This applies to stores such as Sprouts and Frazier farms who still ask shoppers whether they want paper or plastic before bagging and encourages use of reusable bags. And everyone have so many uses for plastic bags brought home. Many people I met with also hate shopping in cities where they have to deal with paper and reusable bags that sometimes tear on their way out or crumble in rain. And they still need just as many plastic bags which they need to buy. The law is just unnecessary pages of bureaucracy that have little to do with environmental science or common sense for that matter. It seems to imply that bags inside the aisles don't cause environmental issues and universally exempt. Why not just simply require all plastic bags/wrapping regardless of whether its inside the aisle, on checkout line, or sold in boxes/packages to be compostable and choke proof instead rather than all this bureaucracy of how a bag is to be sold at a checkout counter. At the end its really not about what type of bag but about controlling people's behavior.

Though the big question is how did voters vote so much differently at the ballot than at the grocery counter?
I originally expected that most of the state particularly interior of SoCal would have voted this down 71% and used the results to overturn local bans as well. I witnessed during the past few years many of the cities passed such ordinances in favor of special interest groups from the Sierra Club despite the protest of many angry residents who write letters or line up outside city hall to speak against it but this is the very first time any California resident get to vote on this.

Of course Voter turnout account for less than 1/4 of the population in CA therefore cannot represent the voices of the entire population. And it appears too many propositions causes many to give up voting the propositions other than the ones they are most interested in or just vote according to media generated lists which usually lean in one direction.

Though its still hard to believe while CA voters was not very leaning toward abolishing the death penalty yet voted to upheld the bag fee even though many inland communities are opposed to it. Though 65 which would had transferred the fee to an environmental fund had failed.
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Old 12-06-2016, 01:18 PM
 
5,339 posts, read 8,871,655 times
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Low voter turn outs make it easy for special interest groups -- usually those who want other people's taxes like public employee unions -- to control the outcomes.
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Old 12-06-2016, 06:13 PM
 
2,272 posts, read 1,061,851 times
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You are right that low voter turnout really make it easy for special interest groups such as the radical sierra club and the big grocers as well as all the progressive leaning groups in the state to get what they want.

Though ironically the democrat majority voters in CA did not put the "death penalty" to death via this election. Yet about 5 to 6 million of them voted to keep the four page of buracracy on checkout bags at the grocery store which only serves to benefit the big grocers wallets. Or about 14% of the state's total population.

Though it doesn't seem to relate to consumer's votes in supermarkets where they are given a choice of bagging. 90% of shoppers still vote for plastics at Sprouts in Oceanside even though the clerks there always gives them a choice between paper, plastic, and reusable. In fact many shoppers nowadays still vote for the thicker plastic bag over the thicker bags in stores that already implemented SB270.

Though the plastic industry is pretty dumb in making the measures more complicated than it seems. i.e the vote to upheld or repeal the law should come first and they could have started a ballot initiative to repeal the 10c fee rather than making it an enviromental tax. As the last line of defense are the conservative voters who are against all forms of new taxation knowing how the California government's poor track record of handling any form of tax revenue.

I bet many voters didn't bother to go that far down the ballot and only voted for the candidates and a few propositions of their interest while the rest are confused by all these ballot measures and often blindly vote according to liberal media generated lists without thinking how it would impact them in real life. Though its a miracle that these liberal media did not support putting to death the highly controversal and long suspended death penalty in CA.
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Old 12-06-2016, 07:34 PM
 
Location: Former land of plenty
3,214 posts, read 1,321,652 times
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I'm a liberal. The Death penalty must be available. Two words sums it up for me. Timothy McViegh.

I have uses for grocery bags after I get them home. And when I'm done with them they do not end up in the middle of the ocean.
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Old 12-08-2016, 10:44 AM
 
2,272 posts, read 1,061,851 times
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True not all liberals want to abolish death penalty. Also i question is life in a 8x8 cell particularly in a place like San Quentin any less cruel punishment than a painless injection.

While hardly anyone had been executed the death penalty actually brings out confessions amoung murders.

I was very surprised by the election results. Though the bag industry made things over complicated and very confusing as well and is pretty incompetent to explain the confusion to the voters. It's a mystery just where did the millions of dollars they spent go?

In almost every grocery store around the state most about 85% of shoppers will "vote" for plastic bags when given a choice at the counter. The figure doesn't change much even for the store locations in the most left leaning progressive regions of the state.

Also a grassroots non profit organization also did a phone and door to door survey in the past and about at least 67% of the population oppose bans or fees on checkout bags. And there was almost just as many registered democrats as republicans who opposed the ban.

Though all these years there are just repeated incidents of liberal city councils believing everything those radical eco freaks say and never do a reality. This is the first time people got to vote on this alas the voters never got to voice their true opinion on this matter.
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Old 12-08-2016, 05:50 PM
 
Location: Santa Rosa
486 posts, read 717,938 times
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Since we never execute anyone in CA I voted to end the death penalty since it will save a lot of money on lawyers and appeals. I vote for the grocery bag bane since i think that the environment ends to be protected at the govenement level since it's owned equality by everyone. But maybe the plastic bag ban is just smoke and mirror and won't do anything for the environment.
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Old 12-09-2016, 02:43 PM
 
Location: Downtown SJ
176 posts, read 201,159 times
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You are assuming that people take the time to understand what they are voting for. I think most are low information voters, by reading a single headline or a few sentences they make their decisions. Many people are ignorant of what their vote actually means, this is why CA has the highest taxes in the nation.

Should we vote for a $2Billion bond to save all puppies and put them in luxury pet hotels? Yes! I love puppies, they are so cute, I'll vote for that, who doesn't love puppies?

What is a bond, who pays for it? They have no idea, and don't care, they just know they like puppies, so they vote YES.

I'd be in favor of the death penalty if they actually used it. But since they don't, might as well shut it down, just adds a bunch of cost.
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Old 12-09-2016, 05:46 PM
 
2,272 posts, read 1,061,851 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hypersion View Post
Since we never execute anyone in CA I voted to end the death penalty since it will save a lot of money on lawyers and appeals. I vote for the grocery bag bane since i think that the environment ends to be protected at the govenement level since it's owned equality by everyone. But maybe the plastic bag ban is just smoke and mirror and won't do anything for the environment.
I see at least your consistent on your views. I have the same view on the death penalty too. While I believe being destined to being stuck in a 8x8 cell without the possibility of parole may not be much better than death penalty. Though if the death penalty is just going to cost more tax payer money with no one being really executed I would question why keep it at all. Even though having the death penalty may help bring out confessions.

I am glad you questioned the whether the bag ban is just smoke in the mirror. I lived in San Jose and the Bay Area until last year and I noticed that the ordinances had caused a much larger increase in other types of plastic garbage(including other types of plastic bags which are not regulated) which were already much worse percentage wise compared to plastic grocery bags they banned which only accounted for 0.5% of total litter stream before the ordinances went into effect. Contrary to what the media tries to brag about the litter situation in SJ and the Bay Area had gotten much worse. You can look at Google street view images which shows greatly increased garbage in the environment the years after the ban compared to before. The SFDPW also did a litter audit that backs the claim. There are also studies done in UK and Ireland of how total plastic waste including other bags increased 400% after taxes were levied on checkout bags.

Quote:
Originally Posted by simboticus View Post
You are assuming that people take the time to understand what they are voting for. I think most are low information voters, by reading a single headline or a few sentences they make their decisions. Many people are ignorant of what their vote actually means, this is why CA has the highest taxes in the nation.

Should we vote for a $2Billion bond to save all puppies and put them in luxury pet hotels? Yes! I love puppies, they are so cute, I'll vote for that, who doesn't love puppies?

What is a bond, who pays for it? They have no idea, and don't care, they just know they like puppies, so they vote YES.

I'd be in favor of the death penalty if they actually used it. But since they don't, might as well shut it down, just adds a bunch of cost.
I totally agree, alas those who pushed the prop 67 referendum did not ads to show people what the votes mean. No signs either. and there were many confusion on the measures. Originally when the referendum was qualified we were told voting yes repeals the bag law and voting no retains it. Than they changed it around. Otherwise we would had gotten much more votes to repeal the ban at least from inland areas.
Adding to the confusion was prop 65, it mislead voters into believing voting no on 65 gets rid of the bag fee though 65 actually was to put the fee to an environmental fund instead therefore they should had voted yes. It would also required a super-majority vote for the fee to exist under the old prop 26 amendment to the CA constitution. Though I believe the industry should made it to remove the fee rather than doing that to gain conservative votes as they are anti new taxation no matter what.

Aside from this and the death penalty I agree that most propositions are too confusing for the layman to know. Alas we hardly get to vote on decisions that directly affect us and easy to understand. Alas the voters blew it on the few that we could understand due to the confusion on the ballot.
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Old 12-09-2016, 06:16 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, a part of Los Angeles
5,670 posts, read 3,536,945 times
Reputation: 12166
In the front of the state voter guide it has a brief summery of what the proposition does, and pros and cons. You can read this quickly and on most make a informed decision right away.
It seems as if people won't even do this. my best friend doesn't, he depends on me to tell him. And he's retired.
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Old 12-13-2016, 06:36 PM
 
Location: Sierra Nevada Land, CA
9,301 posts, read 10,385,518 times
Reputation: 15822
Quote:
Originally Posted by citizensadvocate View Post
You are right that low voter turnout really make it easy for special interest groups such as the radical sierra club and the big grocers as well as all the progressive leaning groups in the state to get what they want.

.
Why is it that any group that espouses a view one disagrees with get the term "radical" before its name? Liberals label any conservative group as a radical group and conservatives label any liberal group as radical.

This coming from a radical Moderate.
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