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Wouldn't appear you are thinking much at all really. California is the world's 6th most powerful economy, has critical ports and natural resources, feeds the nation more than half everyone's produce, accounts for the majority of venture capital, has likely the world's deepest inventory of intellectual capital in one state, leads the nation in manufacturing output ...
What county do you have in mind that can bust out on its own with that kind of inertia? Del Norte, perhaps?
So your justification is that anyone with any special or unique capability or resource can strike out on their own? It's the ability to apply leverage, and not a political consideration.
Good to know the left is sticking to its core principles.
California Secession would never succeed because most of the people popping off at the mouth about it believe (in general) all of the things StanleysOwl is saying.
I think there is a much greater chance of California succeeding that the state splitting up.
I think there is a much greater chance of California succeeding that the state splitting up.
Had the splitting up remained focused on the traditional north/south split, it may have gained more traction. This new east/west split is driven by politics only so it's already flawed in that way. Another way is that it separates the state into a richer one and much poorer one. This may be something that members of this forum ignore but it won't be one congress would ignore and a state splitting into more than one is an entirely internal affair unlike secession which becomes international so the rules can change.
I guess perhaps if we add a west California to the north/south split it would be even better. West California can include all the coast range side communities from Clear lake and Mendoncino county, then hug the coastline through the Bay Area and Central Coast until City of LA and Compton. And maybe rename North California to Jefferson. Than have South California include everything east of the coast range south of Fresno and east of West California.
Non of these Californias would be exceptionally poor as they all include major economic centers. Maybe North California if it includes all land that would had became Jefferson would be poorest of the three but they would still fare better than many other states in the Union.
I am always curious why while CA seems defacto two states for decades yet remains one officially. Almost every major firm will treat NorCal and SoCal as if they are two different states. What I heard the only reason CA is not two states is due to distribution of water. Is this true? And these days SoCal is facing its second energy crisis since the Enron meltdown due to the closing of SONGs which was a major power producer and they are now buying electricity in large amounts from NorCal at skyrocketing rates. I am surprised compared to the last one the media is almost silent on this energy crisis. But SoCal residents due feel the effects of skyrocketing electric rates on their bills during the last three years.
Last edited by citizensadvocate; 04-08-2017 at 12:44 PM..
Californian independence, (again) is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if this notion was really considered, deeply, in all it's ramifications, or if it's just a hysterical knee-jerk (and very anti-democracy BTW) reaction to the most recent U.S. presidential election.
Regardless, there are may things to consider.
I'll try to address just a few that come to mind, as I sit here sipping my coffee.
1.
Among the very first things that the "California Republic" (assuming they go w/that name again) must do, ironically enough, after some sort of successful plebiscite, is secure her borders. A nation with poorly defined, uncontrolled and undefended borders is in point of fact, NOT a nation. Perpetual and gradually "darkening" grey-area borders are a joke and serve no purpose save promotion of confusion, chaos and criminal elements looking to skirt laws, taxes, regulations and the like.
Grey-area borders are the ultimate in elitist "gated-community" NIMBY for those that wish to do nothing and who enjoy (via large supplies of cheap labor) the status-quo. Those who are shielded by massive income and cost disparity, those insulated from reality by the virtual wall of their own money, need not fear the social impacts of the poor moving in next-door because the poor simply cannot afford the 5 million dollar Craftsman in "Professorville"
2.
Coupled with the above, the California Republic will need to have some sort of coherent enforceable immigration policy. If she does not she will have waves upon waves of immigrants moving in. This will change her demographics and the voting and election foundations of the new nation. Interestingly enough, this is much the way California became a U.S. state to begin with. Mexico lost control of California's borders, could not control immigration and was too weak to govern and protect the Californian State. (Upper California). Huge numbers of immigrants from the United States (and elsewhere) flooded in, looking for gold, land, wealth, opportunities, a better life. They came in, in such huge numbers the demographics changed, they had nothing in common with Mexico, not the culture the language the mores...zip. Then, military action, on the part of "Anglo" settlers, against small numbers of weak Mexican authorities, along with powerful US business interests, "Manifest Destiny"/US military intervention, in short, led to a brief "Republic" and eventual "Statehood" and inclusion in the United States.
It is doubtful that there are enough tattooed "butch" types in all of San Francisco to form any sort of meaningful nascent military force capable of managing a border that is thousands of miles long and in some of the most rugged terrain in the western hemisphere.
3.
There are many redoubtable conservative areas in California, and they control many of the passes and the high-ground.
Doubtless it has missed the attention of the, rather silly techn-0-weenies (dabbling in areas WAY beyond their field of expertise) that there are huge areas in California that are most definitely NOT lock-step with those in the bay-area or hollywood. These folks are the types B. Hussein-0h used to refer to as those "clinging to their guns, and bibles". I know of many such people. They are to a man, tough, resilient, self-reliant, not too well educated perhaps, but more than smart enough, and more than willing enough to put up a very stiff resistance. They have the will, and they have the capabilities, and they have the equipment to fight. Believe me. And they detest social liberals.
Any new "California Republic" may very well, in it's first few hours of life, be subjected to an insurgency of massive proportions. These "rednecks" are well armed, have been totally ignoring ALL California's ridiculous "gun-laws" from day one, and, like I said, are more than willing to fight the elitist mutants that they, the former, almost universally regard as "Occupiers".
Again, are there enough "butches" in the "city" to force these areas to remain in California? How will the new nation keep them in? How do they propose to keep peace in these restive areas? By FORCE? ......WHAT FORCE!? ........
Indeed, how will the new nation get the world community to recognize their new borders and status if, in the first fragile hours, it all starts unraveling right before their very eyes? Will they issue a "Memo"? Will it be some sort of patently foolish "virtual" border? O.K. that's ridiculous beyond measure and so meaningless that it completely defies reality and all reason.
Will the new republic invite foreign forces to come in and assist in California's defense? That will almost certainly make the new nation beholden to this foreign power. China (Peoples Republic of (Communist) China) comes to mind here.
4.
How will the new nation of California handle all the, now foreign-owned, assets? Will she nationalize them? A very cursory glimpse of history will show that nations that try that gambit fall prey to foreign "inspired" coups and/or invasions in short order. Again, how will the new nation propose to fend this off? What to do if the insurgent areas ask for US assistance? What if they themselves declare independence from the "new" California and ask for US recognition? What then? Keep them in by force? Buy them off?
5.
The U.S. with either withdraw all U.S. assets, or hold them in place to intimidate the new California Republic. U.S. military forces may withdraw from California. But they might not. There's an interesting question. What to do if the US forces stay put? Just live with it?
6.
Democracy and the rule of law.
It seems that one of the very corner stones of this "California Independence" movement is the complete and total rejection of the most recent US Presidential election. If California (or the moronic advocates of this "movement") were so opposed to THIS democratic process will they set up their new nation as a democracy? Or will it be a dictatorship of the "high-tech-n0-crats"? If they don't control immigration, and say floods of "bible-and-gun-toting" conservatives were to immigrate, and vote themselves into power in the new nation, would the powers-that-be in the California Republic respect THIS democratic outcome? Or would they plan to systematically exclude them? Who would they include? Muslims? Muslims don't support abortion or homosexuality. Will they propose to set up the system to exclude Christians? Most Mexicans are conservative Christians and are also unlikely to support legislation that celebrates abortion or homosexuality or other causes popularized and politicized by the "left". Will the elites set up a "brazilified" nation where the techo-geeks, live in gated gilded coffee-shop communities, and run the show? Will it be that the elites keep the hordes in the dusty farm towns in the Central Valley and in the token decrepit trailer-park behind the grocery store on the El Camino Real? Will the poor just stay where they are, play along and keep quiet?
7.
Though most "good" liberals "loathe the military" and refuse to have anything to do with it, in the above mentioned and inevitable insurgency they'll need at least a 10-to-1 superiority to crush it, or even keep it in check. I, for one doubt that California has the forces or wherewith-all necessary for this. Again the rednecks control the high-ground, but even more importantly than that, they control the areas where much if not most of California's drinking water is sourced and located. Much of the states, "nations" power, infrastructure, transportation network comes from or passes through these "conservative" areas.
It does not take too much of stretch to see that the new nation could, and almost certainly would, be held at ransom for the power, water, electricity, gas and oil she will need to survive. There is not nearly enough capacity in the LA area or the Bay Area to supply those areas needs on a day-to-day basis. Much would have to be imported. Very little has been done to increase supply capacity (all efforts to do so perpetually held up by endless protests, environmental impact statement rubbish and the like) and so California has been living on the edge (logistically speaking) for a very long time. Very little to no new water, oil, gas, power (real power now, not "renewable" play-pen pie-in-the-sky power) has been built or developed in decades. In a show of rather surprising environmental racism much of the load of this has been carried by the rest of the US. As an, ostensibly, independent nation CA would be on the hook for all of that, and paying for expensive imports, including foodstuffs.
Lastly,
If this foolishness continues, if the support of measures that have already led to violence and promise to lead to further violence keeps up, if property loss and worse become common-place and "justified" in the eyes of the mindless mob now unleashed.....The fools that have started this all could be on the line for sedition and treason charges. If there erupts any sort of widespread fighting the proponents of these ideas could find themselves facing charges of war-crimes or worse, and I'm sure that they'd be all too shocked to find themselves hanging from the awning of the corner gas-station by their heels.......
Just a few thoughts.......
Ah yes.
Evening time, a good glass of bourbon, nice warm fire..... and a few more thoughts on "Californian Independence".
So, California as an independent country.
Not withstanding all the former points I made, which to be honest are considerable, what will the new nation, the Republic of California do.....when.....and if....
1.
What will they do about money? What currency will she propose to use? Can't use US Dollars, that would be silly. How independent of the United States can you possibly be, if you use THEIR currency? Will they use Yen? Rubles? Baht?
Will CA come up w/ their own money? Will they try the "bit-koin" thing, and just do "digital" (ha ha) or "E" money?
Hummmmm. Interesting thought. That might be "cute" for the millennials in the Bay Area, but the impoverished hordes perpetually stuck in the Central Valley probably won't go for that idea too much. They don't even trust paper money as it is NOW. They opt, instead for bartering, precious metals and the like, since they come from, and still emotionally are in, the third-world where fancy paper money is near worthless and shadow economies are the rule rather than the exception.
Who will back this new currency? What ever it is. Communist China? Communist North Korea? The Saudis? WHO? How will it be made "convert-able"? What will it take for the international community to respect and value this currency? Look how long it takes for other countries to have their currency be made fully convertible. They have to jump through hoops seemingly without end.
How to divvy up California's share of the US foreign debt? Will CA just renege on all that? Cancel it straight off?
That won't bode well for a new country. What of banking? The Post? Health Services? Housing...on and on....
2.
What of California's citizens, however that is determined. Will CAR (CA Republic) grant dual citizenship to US citizens that were born in CA(R)? How will they be vetted? Who gets in and who does not? Lots of things to be considered there.
3.
Tax structure.
CA independence promoters have made noise about withholding taxes to the US. Does she now, or will CA(R) pull in enough taxes (in-state) to meet all her funding needs once all US funds are cut off? In other words does CA give more to the US in taxes than she takes back in US Federal funding? O.K. perhaps so....now at this point. But once she's independent and all her costs are on her own plate, will she have enough in tax revenue to meet all needs?Will the six-seven-eight figure salary "beautiful people" in Belvedere and Burlingame be willing to endure the very steep tax brackets required to cover the costs of the large numbers of the cute-but-at-a-great-distance "less fortunate?"
4.
Housing.
What to do about housing.
I know of many people in the Bay Area and elsewhere that are living two people to a 3-4-5-thousand square-foot house. And yet there are those troublesome trailer parks, so handy to have when the city needs to "check the box" in regards to low income housing, but in all honesty, how FAIR is THAT? Is that not just wretched latent, barely concealed racism? Would the new CA(R) have to "entice" owners of large properties, huge homes, to take in, or make available living space for, those who have been habitually relegated to far less than adequate housing, in an area brimming with wealth and space? Will there simply have to be massive new developments to build new homes and the like to meet the need? Would the new CA(R) government simply "take" living space from those with too much of it and dole it out to those who do not have enough? How many square meters of space does a human-being actually NEED in order to survive? Will the CA(R) look at all the unused, little used or misused living spaces and redistribute it?
5.
Food.
CA(R) is a large producer of food. Much of the food growing region in CA(R) is in areas that are "RED", conservative, gun-bible-monster-truck driving and none too fond-a of bahay-area liberals or hollywood types. What will CA(R) do if these areas simply refuse to send food to the cities where most of the "blue" reside? Again, it looks like expensive imports of basic necessities. (And then there's drinking water like I mentioned in my first post)
6.
Defense.
CA(R), I dare say, doesn't have a clue what they are doing on this "front", if you forgive the expression. The "black-block" types and other "groups" who can't even mount routinely successful urban "disobedience" type operations, who can barely manage quasi-organized vandalism are simply no match for a professional military force. They'd be rolled up in short order and that's just a cold, hard, fact.
CA(R) does not have a navy, nor do they have an air-force. CA(R) can't control her coastline as it is now, let alone as an independent nation. They're WIDE open in other words, completely, utterly, totally WIDE OPEN.
(As a side note: As a former Californian I have an intimate knowledge of much of the "state", it's geography, climate, strengths, weaknesses and it's inhabitants. I, for one, would be more than willing to offer my services to the United States, in whatever capacity the US might deem appropriate or necessary, to engage in any activity the US might take on vis the new dynamic relationship with the CA(R).)
....jus say'n......
Ahhhh.......it's jus the bourbon......
So, now a cup-o-hot-chocolate, sitting by the fire.
We frequently hear this talk of "California would be the sixth most powerful nation in the world, IF she were independent".
How much of that power belongs to the United States? CA won't be able to keep any of that.
How much of CA's economic standing is BECAUSE she's part of the US? Goods, services, skilled workers can move freely back and forth from state to state where opportunities are the most advantageous. "Independence" would do little to ENHANCE that necessary trait found in strong democracies, but go far toward inhibiting that freedom.
The whole idea is patently ridiculous and again, the people promoting this are stirring up a fire that won't die down easily, without bloodshed.
In the history of mankind, people that strike out for independence almost never achieve it without setting off revolts that last years and cost countless lives. No RATIONAL person in the US -OR- CA wants that. Independence is not gained by emailing a memo but by way of force. That's a game that CA is utterly unable to win.
If the democratic outcome of the last election leaves such a bitter taste in the mouths of those in CA they should seriously consider emigrating.
Last edited by Happy Cells; 04-08-2017 at 09:54 PM..
Californian independence, (again) is an interesting idea, but I'm not sure if this notion was really considered, deeply, in all it's ramifications, or if it's just a hysterical knee-jerk (and very anti-democracy BTW) reaction to the most recent U.S. presidential election.
Regardless, there are may things to consider.
I'll try to address just a few that come to mind, as I sit here sipping my coffee.
1.
Among the very first things that the "California Republic" (assuming they go w/that name again) must do, ironically enough, after some sort of successful plebiscite, is secure her borders. A nation with poorly defined, uncontrolled and undefended borders is in point of fact, NOT a nation. Perpetual and gradually "darkening" grey-area borders are a joke and serve no purpose save promotion of confusion, chaos and criminal elements looking to skirt laws, taxes, regulations and the like.
Grey-area borders are the ultimate in elitist "gated-community" NIMBY for those that wish to do nothing and who enjoy (via large supplies of cheap labor) the status-quo. Those who are shielded by massive income and cost disparity, those insulated from reality by the virtual wall of their own money, need not fear the social impacts of the poor moving in next-door because the poor simply cannot afford the 5 million dollar Craftsman in "Professorville"
2.
Coupled with the above, the California Republic will need to have some sort of coherent enforceable immigration policy. If she does not she will have waves upon waves of immigrants moving in. This will change her demographics and the voting and election foundations of the new nation. Interestingly enough, this is much the way California became a U.S. state to begin with. Mexico lost control of California's borders, could not control immigration and was too weak to govern and protect the Californian State. (Upper California). Huge numbers of immigrants from the United States (and elsewhere) flooded in, looking for gold, land, wealth, opportunities, a better life. They came in, in such huge numbers the demographics changed, they had nothing in common with Mexico, not the culture the language the mores...zip. Then, military action, on the part of "Anglo" settlers, against small numbers of weak Mexican authorities, along with powerful US business interests, "Manifest Destiny"/US military intervention, in short, led to a brief "Republic" and eventual "Statehood" and inclusion in the United States.
It is doubtful that there are enough tattooed "butch" types in all of San Francisco to form any sort of meaningful nascent military force capable of managing a border that is thousands of miles long and in some of the most rugged terrain in the western hemisphere.
3.
There are many redoubtable conservative areas in California, and they control many of the passes and the high-ground.
Doubtless it has missed the attention of the, rather silly techn-0-weenies (dabbling in areas WAY beyond their field of expertise) that there are huge areas in California that are most definitely NOT lock-step with those in the bay-area or hollywood. These folks are the types B. Hussein-0h used to refer to as those "clinging to their guns, and bibles". I know of many such people. They are to a man, tough, resilient, self-reliant, not too well educated perhaps, but more than smart enough, and more than willing enough to put up a very stiff resistance. They have the will, and they have the capabilities, and they have the equipment to fight. Believe me. And they detest social liberals.
Any new "California Republic" may very well, in it's first few hours of life, be subjected to an insurgency of massive proportions. These "rednecks" are well armed, have been totally ignoring ALL California's ridiculous "gun-laws" from day one, and, like I said, are more than willing to fight the elitist mutants that they, the former, almost universally regard as "Occupiers".
Again, are there enough "butches" in the "city" to force these areas to remain in California? How will the new nation keep them in? How do they propose to keep peace in these restive areas? By FORCE? ......WHAT FORCE!? ........
Indeed, how will the new nation get the world community to recognize their new borders and status if, in the first fragile hours, it all starts unraveling right before their very eyes? Will they issue a "Memo"? Will it be some sort of patently foolish "virtual" border? O.K. that's ridiculous beyond measure and so meaningless that it completely defies reality and all reason.
Will the new republic invite foreign forces to come in and assist in California's defense? That will almost certainly make the new nation beholden to this foreign power. China (Peoples Republic of (Communist) China) comes to mind here.
4.
How will the new nation of California handle all the, now foreign-owned, assets? Will she nationalize them? A very cursory glimpse of history will show that nations that try that gambit fall prey to foreign "inspired" coups and/or invasions in short order. Again, how will the new nation propose to fend this off? What to do if the insurgent areas ask for US assistance? What if they themselves declare independence from the "new" California and ask for US recognition? What then? Keep them in by force? Buy them off?
5.
The U.S. with either withdraw all U.S. assets, or hold them in place to intimidate the new California Republic. U.S. military forces may withdraw from California. But they might not. There's an interesting question. What to do if the US forces stay put? Just live with it?
6.
Democracy and the rule of law.
It seems that one of the very corner stones of this "California Independence" movement is the complete and total rejection of the most recent US Presidential election. If California (or the moronic advocates of this "movement") were so opposed to THIS democratic process will they set up their new nation as a democracy? Or will it be a dictatorship of the "high-tech-n0-crats"? If they don't control immigration, and say floods of "bible-and-gun-toting" conservatives were to immigrate, and vote themselves into power in the new nation, would the powers-that-be in the California Republic respect THIS democratic outcome? Or would they plan to systematically exclude them? Who would they include? Muslims? Muslims don't support abortion or homosexuality. Will they propose to set up the system to exclude Christians? Most Mexicans are conservative Christians and are also unlikely to support legislation that celebrates abortion or homosexuality or other causes popularized and politicized by the "left". Will the elites set up a "brazilified" nation where the techo-geeks, live in gated gilded coffee-shop communities, and run the show? Will it be that the elites keep the hordes in the dusty farm towns in the Central Valley and in the token decrepit trailer-park behind the grocery store on the El Camino Real? Will the poor just stay where they are, play along and keep quiet?
7.
Though most "good" liberals "loathe the military" and refuse to have anything to do with it, in the above mentioned and inevitable insurgency they'll need at least a 10-to-1 superiority to crush it, or even keep it in check. I, for one doubt that California has the forces or wherewith-all necessary for this. Again the rednecks control the high-ground, but even more importantly than that, they control the areas where much if not most of California's drinking water is sourced and located. Much of the states, "nations" power, infrastructure, transportation network comes from or passes through these "conservative" areas.
It does not take too much of stretch to see that the new nation could, and almost certainly would, be held at ransom for the power, water, electricity, gas and oil she will need to survive. There is not nearly enough capacity in the LA area or the Bay Area to supply those areas needs on a day-to-day basis. Much would have to be imported. Very little has been done to increase supply capacity (all efforts to do so perpetually held up by endless protests, environmental impact statement rubbish and the like) and so California has been living on the edge (logistically speaking) for a very long time. Very little to no new water, oil, gas, power (real power now, not "renewable" play-pen pie-in-the-sky power) has been built or developed in decades. In a show of rather surprising environmental racism much of the load of this has been carried by the rest of the US. As an, ostensibly, independent nation CA would be on the hook for all of that, and paying for expensive imports, including foodstuffs.
Lastly,
If this foolishness continues, if the support of measures that have already led to violence and promise to lead to further violence keeps up, if property loss and worse become common-place and "justified" in the eyes of the mindless mob now unleashed.....The fools that have started this all could be on the line for sedition and treason charges. If there erupts any sort of widespread fighting the proponents of these ideas could find themselves facing charges of war-crimes or worse, and I'm sure that they'd be all too shocked to find themselves hanging from the awning of the corner gas-station by their heels.......
Just a few thoughts.......
Your thoughts are few though your words are many. All the same as you threw up in previous posts. Every issue already covered. But who said drinking heavily and rehashing wasn't fun?
Your thoughts are few though your words are many. All the same as you threw up in previous posts. Every issue already covered. But who said drinking heavily and rehashing wasn't fun?
It's as if some think that being overly verbose will somehow make what they're saying more impressive and convincing not realizing that it actually has the opposite effect.
The secession thing is every communist libs wet dream. I would probably support it if it looked like this though.
Give everything south of I-15/I-210/I-605 to Arizona and everything north of I-5/I-210/I-15 to Nevada. Everything west of the central valley should secede and become their own commie nation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TristramShandy
Dream on if you think San Diego would be East California. Look at the registered Democrat numbers in the county.
Maybe we'd just go it alone - - already have a population greater than 21 states that exist.
Communities in the north county area leans heavily republican. If all the illegals in Southern California were kicked out, it would be heavily republican.
Communities in the north county area leans heavily republican. If all the illegals in Southern California were kicked out, it would be heavily republican.
Not a chance. Isaa almost lost this year against a very flawed Democratic candidate (50.3% to 49.7%) even though he had $2.9 million cash on hand over Applegate. And San Diego city proper is decidedly Democrat in registrations (42% to 27%), and they tripled their lead in registrations in 2016 alone.
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