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I answer "yes" to most of those questions -- if the line is crossed. That line is when obesity, lack of physical activity, staying up too late at night (perhaps tagging the hood), playing too many video games, or not bathing enough becomes a problem for public health and safety. At that point my taxes have to pay for the negative consequences. So, yes, at some point I want the state to step in if in the end it has to anyway. I would rather have my taxes go to prevention than to rehabilitation.
Sounds like you are a strong proponent of the state controlling peoples' everyday life. There are countries out there that still do that. Maybe you should consider a move? Then again most of the countries that original had that form of government have either changed out of necessity or have Been change from within by their people that were tired of the state running their lives.
I answer "yes" to most of those questions -- if the line is crossed. That line is when obesity, lack of physical activity, staying up too late at night (perhaps tagging the hood), playing too many video games, or not bathing enough becomes a problem for public health and safety. At that point my taxes have to pay for the negative consequences. So, yes, at some point I want the state to step in if in the end it has to anyway. I would rather have my taxes go to prevention than to rehabilitation.
Yes! The good government protects the weak and vulnerable from the the aggressive--and it is in the public interest!
I work in the school system and also tutor privately. I've worked with dozens of home schooled kids and in my experience 1/3 of them are fine, on track, and likely headed for college. The other 2/3 vary from lagging a bit behind through no fault of their own, to suffering the consequences of a parent "teacher's" incompetence or complete disregard for education. Still, I'm not against homeschooling. The kids who have parents who are educated and able to teach (not the same thing) are often way ahead of grade level and have a love of learning that will take them far. The kids who are struggling are learning to fight for their education and value the time they get with a good teacher. The kids who are being home schooled because the parent is more worried about the homosexual agenda and evolution than whether or not their child can read will not fair so well. But, as they are quick to remind, this is a free country, and ditches will always need digging.
I answer "yes" to most of those questions -- if the line is crossed. That line is when obesity, lack of physical activity, staying up too late at night (perhaps tagging the hood), playing too many video games, or not bathing enough becomes a problem for public health and safety. At that point my taxes have to pay for the negative consequences. So, yes, at some point I want the state to step in if in the end it has to anyway. I would rather have my taxes go to prevention than to rehabilitation.
You highlight one of the big problems with government paying for things that they shouldn't. Once Big Government is footing the bill then they think they have the right (and responsibility) to tell people which decisions are off-limits.
I'm not saying that government shouldn't pay for education. And I don't believe the "slippery-slope" argument is generally very strong. However, the arguments that many, including you cre8, are making against allowing people to homeschool without credentials can be EASILY be applied to other situations (such as those I noted) and lead to further serious erosion of individual freedom.
This thread is useful in illustrating why our country is so polarized politically between those who lean towards individual freedoms and those who prefer the state take the lead.
Sounds like you are a strong proponent of the state controlling peoples' everyday life. There are countries out there that still do that. Maybe you should consider a move? Then again most of the countries that original had that form of government have either changed out of necessity or have Been change from within by their people that were tired of the state running their lives.
Consider a move? I'm an American and the country still belongs to me, too, even if I see a role for the country's government in daily life where you don't.
But as a matter of fact, I'm not particularly a "strong proponent of the state controlling peoples' everyday life." What I am a proponent of is wiser use of taxes. I'd rather prevent than lament, as the saying goes. Paying taxes to support expensive rehabilitation programs just because we didn't have decent prevention programs in the first place is to me, well, really, really dumb!
As an example, it's cheaper for me as a tax payer to put someone through school (yes, homeschool, too) who then gets a job and contributes to my day-to-day than it is to keep them in prison -- at a cost of $30,000/yr. per inmate. Sounds stark, perhaps, but our choices often come down to this. I'd rather see the state take the most cost effective route. How does this make me a proponent of government controlling our lives?
Last edited by Winston Smith; 03-17-2008 at 02:37 AM..
Reason: subj verb agreement
However, the arguments that many, including you cre8, are making against allowing people to homeschool without credentials can be EASILY be applied to other situations (such as those I noted) and lead to further serious erosion of individual freedom.
Forgive me, but requiring credentials for k-12 edu and erosion of freedom starts to sound a little paranoid to me. Personally, I don't care if educators (home or not) are credentialed as long as you and those who don't want credentials can assure me that I won't be footing the bill for stupidity via taxes later on. Assure me that non-credentialed educators won't cause me to have to deal with -- and pay for -- an illiterate, incompetent and criminal society as I age into senior citizendom. Assure me of this and I will support you 100 percent.
Forgive me, but requiring credentials for k-12 edu and erosion of freedom starts to sound a little paranoid to me. Personally, I don't care if educators (home or not) are credentialed as long as you and those who don't want credentials can assure me that I won't be footing the bill for stupidity via taxes later on. Assure me that non-credentialed educators won't cause me to have to deal with -- and pay for -- an illiterate, incompetent and criminal society as I age into senior citizendom. Assure me of this and I will support you 100 percent.
Straw man argument. Can anyone assure you that you won't be footing the bill for those educated by credentialed who promulgate societal dysfunction? Surely you cannot rest your argument for mandating that children be taught by someone that is tested and approved by the state on some comparative analysis of the degradation of society by those that are not?
Our citizenry has been slowly brainwashed into thinking that the "State" knows what is best for us --- much like the frog in the boiling pot. The government of the people, by the people and for the people is slowly becoming the government of the "Village Mentality". Anyone who cannot see this ruling as yet another attempt to thwart our liberties and erode our freedoms needs a deeper understanding of our Constitution, Bill of Rights, and the intent of our Founding Fathers. The more rights and privileges we relinquish now the less chance we will have to rectify the bad laws in the future.
I made a conscious decision that I would put my children in private school before I even had them. So I began 21 years ago by sacrificing other pleasures and opening my own business. To this day I work 50-80 hours a week so that I can provide my state and federal government with the amount of taxes they say they need to extract from me and still be able to live like I want. When we decided to take our oldest out of the private school last December (for what WE felt were appropriate reasons) WE decided to home school her for the rest of the year. Now the state wants to tell me that my wife is not allowed because she does not have a piece of paper that says she is qualified --- If you think otherwise read the entirety of the case. I did and that's exactly what it proposes. If this law is enacted it will mean different things to different people, to be sure. But the one effect it will have on EVERYBODY is that it will further empower the government and lessen the influence we have as citizens to retain our freedoms. With each freedom plucked from us as individuals comes a transfer of power to the local, state and federal government. And this is a big one.
I would like to know who among those that support this proposed legislation believes that we should still have a right to freedom of religion? Based on those responses I have another thought to post to this thread.
I would like to know who among those that support this proposed legislation believes that we should still have a right to freedom of religion? Based on those responses I have another thought to post to this thread.
Freedom of religion? Yes. Freedom to teach children that the earth was created in 6 days; that dinosaur fossils are a trick left by Satan to lure people away from God; that a holy man from Nazareth, who was tortured and killed for teaching that everyone belongs is now their personal savior? Not in a public school.
The right to freedom of religion includes the separation of church and state. I'm all for allowing the religiously ignorant to pass that ignorance on to their children, as long as they do it at home, and don't subject my children to endless and disruptive in class arguments about what "the Bible says." I oppose this legislation because it will force these families back into the school system where I will have to deal with their crap.
....The right to freedom of religion includes the separation of church and state. .....
What's good for the goose is good for the gander. I can debate two directions on this one... I'll choose to do so on your terms:
If I am afforded the same right as others in the "separation" arguement then, as a taxpayer I should not have to subject my children in public schools to the religion of Secular Humanism. With the extraction of christianity from public schools the substitution of SH has become the state sponsored religion. Of course, all good anti-christian indoctrination incorporates a good study of how Secular Humanism is not a religion. I'll save my breath on trying to convince you otherwise (pearls to swine). I will allow the words from John Dunphy of Humanist Magazine to say it for me:
"I am convinced that the battle for humankind's future must be waged and won in the public school classroom by teachers who correctly perceive their role as the proselytizers of a new faith: a religion of humanity that recognizes and respects that spark of what theologians call divinity in every human being. These teachers must embody the same selfless dedication as the most rabid fundamentalist preachers, for they will be ministers of another sort, utilizing a classroom instead of a pulpit to convey humanist values in whatever subject they teach, regardless of educational level -- preschool day care or large state university. The classroom must and will become an arena of conflict between the old and the new -- the rotting corpse of Christianity, together with its adjacent evils and misery, and the new faith of humanism, resplendent in its promise of a world in which the never-realized Christian ideal of "love thy neighbor" will finally be achieved."
So, I've got my tax dollars hard at work promoting a religion I wouldn't touch with a ten foot pole. Even though the church/state argument is a non-sequitur (still looking for it in the Constitution) I will use it... GET YOUR GRUBBY RELIGION OUT OF MY SCHOOL.
"I'll save my breath on trying to convince you otherwise (pearls to swine)."
Yes, please do.
Keep your child home, by all means. Wait for the rapture. Worry about Islam. Buy a bunker and stock it with canned goods. Do whatever you want. I fully support your right not to participate in education. Stay home! (Handball against the drapes.)
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