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Old 07-26-2017, 12:56 PM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,435,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99 View Post
Agreed RosieSD. But I'm all for closing the border and ending this mass wave that's affected our economy in a grave way. Other than that we agree that the best way to get people into those higher paying jobs is education. But not just push for college but trade schools. People don't have to go to four year colleges
I agree that the issue of illegal immigration needs to be solved.

We probably disagree, however, on the methods for reducing illegal immigration.

For one, spending billions on building ANOTHER wall (we already a huge wall along the border where I live) is unlikely to fully fix this.

As a school counselor, I met many, many families with kids who were here illegally. They didn't all come from Mexico or South America, by the way. I met families who came from China, Thailand, Viet Nam, Ireland Canada, England, Russia, Iraq, etc.

They didn't cross the border by foot. (Actually, neither did most of the Mexican families I met). They hopped on a plane and entered using a tourist visa, then just never went home. (In the case of Mexicans, some came by car on a visitor's visa).

So, rather than spend billions building a bigger wall (when one already exists), I'd like to see the Federal government spend that money on tighter control of tourist visas in some way. In other words, make sure that our guests go home when their guest pass (tourist visa) expires.

We also need some sort of humane system for dealing with the people who are already here. I think America can do better than just shipping everyone en mass back to where they came from (that's a more complicated question, of course, than how to stop new people from coming in).

I do, however, also support more border patrol funding, for both the Mexican AND Canadian borders. I don't see that as an immigration issue so much as a protection issue (protection from both terrorism and drug cartels). Living as close to the border as I do, I've seen and heard some worrisome things from border patrol agents I know.

But, again, this is getting off topic. (Although as I said earlier, I bet if you sorted out undocumented aliens from the savings rate data in California, things would look a little different)

 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:02 PM
 
Location: Living on the Coast in Oxnard CA
15,726 posts, read 26,753,064 times
Reputation: 20346
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieSD View Post
Interesting. Tell me more about your plans for helping people in poverty.
It is no secret that tax payer money has been tossed at helping those in need for 50 years or more and nothing has changed. The only thing that we know is that tossing money at the problem does not fix the problem. We have a society that we reward unwed mothers. We reward those that do nothing. We make sure that to get free stuff you should not produce anything.

Money is not the answer and giving more money will not fix the problem. If anything what we have done is increase the amount of people on the dole.

Since we know that giving away free stuff does not work we need to wean people off the dole. We need to make changes that encourages them to want to provide for themselves. Some say that it impossible to do. which is funny because I say it is possible to do. I know of jobs that go unfilled. No one wants to do those jobs though. We have people coming across the border picking Strawberries, working in the fields, and many other things that people do not want to do. We have jobs in plenty of other industries that are given to illegals because our own welfare recipients have no need to take those jobs. Things would sure change if they wanted to eat I am betting. I am also betting that plenty of people would see that as a need to learn a trade or some other thing so that they can support themselves in a way that would keep them from working in the fields.

It won't happen over night. We have too many people that have made living on the backs of others a lifestyle. It is an insult that I should have to work all day to pay for my own family and see many people that could work and choose not to. I see these homeless people around here begging for money on a street corner, many of them getting aggressive and when they have been offered work the answer is a big NO. How can I blame them, they make good money and it is tax free, they don't get soaked with Social Security taxes, money we will never see and guess what, because they don't have a traditional income they can qualify for money out of the tax payer payments that us working people pay. Lucky them. People need to stop giving to these people on the street. Plenty of places out there that help and assist the homeless. Give to those places. Give to the Rescue mission or Salvation army or some other group. Any place that helps the homeless. In fact that is what I am going to start telling these people on the street, that I gave at the Rescue Mission and if they want help that they should go for lunch and dinner and they will give them a place to sleep. They will even help them get off the drugs and alcohol.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:04 PM
 
5,113 posts, read 2,754,929 times
Reputation: 4677
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99 View Post
A Conflict of Visions by Thomas Sowell. It changed my whole worldview.
Sowell is the man. Too bad his political views prevented him from getting more coverage from MSM outlets because he could have educated a lot of misinformed people with his words.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:07 PM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,435,190 times
Reputation: 8957
By the way, radiolibre99, see what we're doing here?

We're having a calm, logical discussion of issues. We're not wasting time accusing each other of being a "conservative" or a "liberal" (or commie ), calling each other nasty names, or saying the other person is ridiculous.

We're also not so wound up in proving our individual political beliefs are the only ones worth having that we can't listen to each other.

We're also not assuming that we know what other posters think or believe, or ranting about MSM or California.

We're simply having a conversation and listening to each other.

Thank you for that. It's been refreshing.

That's ultimately what I mean by balanced. It's a shame that more people aren't able to have conversations like this on City Data, not to mention the rest of the internet, face-to-face, and lord knows in our legislative chambers.

We might all be better off and more problems solved if that were the case.

Last edited by RosieSD; 07-26-2017 at 01:15 PM..
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:19 PM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,435,190 times
Reputation: 8957
Quote:
Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE View Post
It is no secret that tax payer money has been tossed at helping those in need for 50 years or more and nothing has changed. The only thing that we know is that tossing money at the problem does not fix the problem. We have a society that we reward unwed mothers. We reward those that do nothing. We make sure that to get free stuff you should not produce anything.

Money is not the answer and giving more money will not fix the problem. If anything what we have done is increase the amount of people on the dole.

Since we know that giving away free stuff does not work we need to wean people off the dole. We need to make changes that encourages them to want to provide for themselves. Some say that it impossible to do. which is funny because I say it is possible to do. I know of jobs that go unfilled. No one wants to do those jobs though. We have people coming across the border picking Strawberries, working in the fields, and many other things that people do not want to do. We have jobs in plenty of other industries that are given to illegals because our own welfare recipients have no need to take those jobs. Things would sure change if they wanted to eat I am betting. I am also betting that plenty of people would see that as a need to learn a trade or some other thing so that they can support themselves in a way that would keep them from working in the fields.

It won't happen over night. We have too many people that have made living on the backs of others a lifestyle. It is an insult that I should have to work all day to pay for my own family and see many people that could work and choose not to. I see these homeless people around here begging for money on a street corner, many of them getting aggressive and when they have been offered work the answer is a big NO. How can I blame them, they make good money and it is tax free, they don't get soaked with Social Security taxes, money we will never see and guess what, because they don't have a traditional income they can qualify for money out of the tax payer payments that us working people pay. Lucky them. People need to stop giving to these people on the street. Plenty of places out there that help and assist the homeless. Give to those places. Give to the Rescue mission or Salvation army or some other group. Any place that helps the homeless. In fact that is what I am going to start telling these people on the street, that I gave at the Rescue Mission and if they want help that they should go for lunch and dinner and they will give them a place to sleep. They will even help them get off the drugs and alcohol.

Good post with a lot of thoughtful comments. Since homelessness and welfare are probably beyond the scope of the thread discussion, and I am heading out the door, I won't reply to each of your points here, but I do agree with a lot of what you are saying.

Thank you for taking the time to post your thoughts without once using the words, "conservative," "liberal" "commie" , "MSM" or "the entire state of California".
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:22 PM
 
7,068 posts, read 1,773,412 times
Reputation: 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99 View Post
I agree and improving the occupational center to help people get into trades is important too. It's all about improving your skill set. There are a ton of good paying jobs out there it's just people lack skills.
If someone already forgoes the chance at getting training when they are young its even harder to get them to do it when they have kids, lots of bills and who knows what other issues.

I think that the educational system fails those who opt out of college. People slip through the cracks and end up at low paying jobs forever instead of a trade or vocation. If there was an area where free education is needed its in the trade vocational sector.

And the future with automation replacing much of the service jobs even those jobs won't be available. Already the McDonalds app allows you to order right from your phone and pick it up. No need for a cashier. I think the days where you go into a fast food place or even the drive through and tell someone what you want to order is numbered.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:23 PM
 
17,521 posts, read 10,605,246 times
Reputation: 8431
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieSD View Post
By the way, radiolibre99, see what we're doing here?

We're having a calm, logical discussion of issues. We're wasting time accusing each other of being a "conservative" or a "liberal" (or commie ), calling each other nasty names, or saying the other person is ridiculous.

We're also not so wound up in proving our individual political beliefs are the only ones worth having that we can't listen to each other.

We're also not assuming that we know what other posters think or believe, or ranting about MSM.

We're simply having a conversation and listening to each other.

Thank you for that. It's been refreshing.

That's ultimately what I mean by balanced. It's a shame that more people aren't able to have conversations like this on City Data, not to mention the rest of the internet, face-to-face, and lord knows in our legislative chambers.

We might all be better off and more problems solved if that were the case.
Hi Rosie,

Your points are valid. The change came in one way when the Bracero program went away and more people coming here illegally were not only allowed to stay but were allowed to work for sub standard wages, etc. Both parties contributed to this. The solution??? Nothing easy for sure.

Can we help people and should we, yes, BUT only if they want it and cooperate with the terms. Right now the homeless are like a kid who refuses to clean up his room, do any work around the house, etc., but still gets his allowance just like his siblings that do the chores do. Is it brutal to make your kid clean his room or get no dinner or be left in his room until he cleans it? Or is it appropriate to use a tool (Incentive) as it were, to get them to act as they should?

Today if someone does not want to work, they get welfare or help at some level. They have no incentive to do anything else. Feel good regulations that do bad is part of the problem.

The total number of illegals is mainly due to the problems they have in their home countries and thy just want a better life. No problem, let them in BUT, only with a Green Card and a requirement to work legally and a law that an employer who hires those here illegally gets a huge fine and jail time. Hit both bad ends and protect the hard working people.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:29 PM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,435,190 times
Reputation: 8957
Quote:
Originally Posted by expatCA View Post
Hi Rosie,

Your points are valid. The change came in one way when the Bracero program went away and more people coming here illegally were not only allowed to stay but were allowed to work for sub standard wages, etc. Both parties contributed to this. The solution??? Nothing easy for sure.

Can we help people and should we, yes, BUT only if they want it and cooperate with the terms. Right now the homeless are like a kid who refuses to clean up his room, do any work around the house, etc., but still gets his allowance just like his siblings that do the chores do. Is it brutal to make your kid clean his room or get no dinner or be left in his room until he cleans it? Or is it appropriate to use a tool (Incentive) as it were, to get them to act as they should?

Today if someone does not want to work, they get welfare or help at some level. They have no incentive to do anything else. Feel good regulations that do bad is part of the problem.

The total number of illegals is mainly due to the problems they have in their home countries and thy just want a better life. No problem, let them in BUT, only with a Green Card and a requirement to work legally and a law that an employer who hires those here illegally gets a huge fine and jail time. Hit both bad ends and protect the hard working people.
I think we're pretty much both saying the same thing, or at least looking at things through similar lenses. Thanks for giving your thoughts. I'm running out the door, but if I have time, I may come back to this discussion later.

Assuming it hasn't deteriorated into the usual shouting match by then.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:34 PM
 
10,097 posts, read 7,533,279 times
Reputation: 5225
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwinkelman View Post
If someone already forgoes the chance at getting training when they are young its even harder to get them to do it when they have kids, lots of bills and who knows what other issues.

I think that the educational system fails those who opt out of college. People slip through the cracks and end up at low paying jobs forever instead of a trade or vocation. If there was an area where free education is needed its in the trade vocational sector.

And the future with automation replacing much of the service jobs even those jobs won't be available. Already the McDonalds app allows you to order right from your phone and pick it up. No need for a cashier. I think the days where you go into a fast food place or even the drive through and tell someone what you want to order is numbered.
That's scary. But improving your skill set to catch up with advances in tech and changes in economy is the only way. Occupational centers in CA are already cheap but they're underfunded and sometimes the classes are cancelled and such. We need to restructure our educational system to get people into trades or higher admin stuff. They need to learn to run the machines that will replace some of the manual labor too.

Then again it takes a will of not only a nation but of the individual. I'm starting to think that functioning countries are still third world not just because of a history of colonialism or corruption but all the high economic activity goes to those who are in the know or take the initiative. There are a lot of rich functional countries out there with high poverty.

I mean what are we supposed to do with people who don't want to improve their skill sets or believe they cant because of XYZ and get left behind? Are we supposed to just perpetually provide for them? I guess this is why Elon Musk and Mark Zuckerberg keep insisting on a universal income.

I just think we are headed toward that high functioning yet high poverty level kinda country.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 01:39 PM
 
7,329 posts, read 4,435,190 times
Reputation: 8957
Quote:
Originally Posted by jackwinkelman View Post
If someone already forgoes the chance at getting training when they are young its even harder to get them to do it when they have kids, lots of bills and who knows what other issues.

I think that the educational system fails those who opt out of college. People slip through the cracks and end up at low paying jobs forever instead of a trade or vocation. If there was an area where free education is needed its in the trade vocational sector.

And the future with automation replacing much of the service jobs even those jobs won't be available. Already the McDonalds app allows you to order right from your phone and pick it up. No need for a cashier. I think the days where you go into a fast food place or even the drive through and tell someone what you want to order is numbered.
I agree with you. As I said above, we're placing far too much emphasis on marching every one off to a 4 year college. Most people probably need more education/training than high school provides, but it doesn't necessarily have to be college.

I read an interesting article recently that talked about how there's a tremendous need for machinists who have computer skills. There are high paying jobs for people with those skills going unfilled. Those jobs don't require a college degree; the training can be completed in a year or even less, but the programs to provide the training are not keeping up with the number of people who need to be trained. So, that's one example where we may be shooting ourselves in the foot by only focusing on four year college for everyone.

(Please note: there's nothing wrong with going to college! I spent the last 20 years of my life helping kids who wanted to go to college make it happen. But, during that time, I met a lot of kids who would have been better served if they'd had other options).

But again, this is getting away from the topic of this thread (Savings in California) and veering into a national politics/policy discussion that probably is best moved to that forum (or the mods will do it for us).
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