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Old 07-26-2017, 06:51 PM
 
7,354 posts, read 4,459,339 times
Reputation: 9012

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Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99 View Post
This is the crux of my point in the above post. At good schools even with a liberal arts educations you learn other necessary skills. At most non-flagship state schools this isn't really the case. Top firms are willing to recruit from top schools and smaller liberal arts colleges because they know they're going to get a good selection of well rounded students regardless of their major. That and they're willing to train top talent.
Boy, we sure are agreeing about a lot today, radiolibre99. The Cal Tech earthquake sensors must be shaking off the scales.

It's not so much the type of institution one attends that matters. There are great public universities, great liberal arts colleges, great private universities, and great specialized institutions. But, there are also so-so and pretty bad public universities, liberal arts colleges, private universities and specialized schools.

And, sometimes what is "great" for one student may not be so great for another; it's the wrong match between the individual student and the college (or training program if we want to include those). And, that goes for fancy "name brand" schools too.

I'd also add that it is never the college you attend that gets you your first job; YOU get you your first job (and subsequent ones).

What many kids fail to understand is that that the path to your first job starts on the day you set foot on campus as a freshman, not as you're walking down the aisle at graduation.

If you approach it that way, a motivated student can find opportunities to build a resume and get on the path to employment at even the most lackluster college, regardless of the type of school it is. (I would qualify that statement by excluding for profit schools, which are a whole other story...)

The key word in that last sentence is "motivated." I can tell you many horror stories of kids who pretty much wasted very expensive educations at prestigious universities, and also of many of kids who took a so-so college and made it into a great experience for themselves.

As with all things in life, there are no absolutes that will apply to everyone. It always comes down to the individual and the choices the individual makes.

Last edited by RosieSD; 07-26-2017 at 07:17 PM..

 
Old 07-26-2017, 07:03 PM
 
7,354 posts, read 4,459,339 times
Reputation: 9012
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
The problem is there are thousands of colleges in America .. and most aren't top schools .
Who determines what a "top" college is?

In most cases, it's just publishers and websites out to make money. Or perhaps your neighbor brags about the school their kid attends so you start to think that it is a "top" school.

There are just over 2400 4-year colleges and universities in America. I've actually visited about half of them.

At every single traditional college/university that I've visited, I've met bright, motivated students and talented and engaging teachers, as well as slacker kids and teachers who put me to sleep. That goes for so-called "top" schools as well as schools you've probably never heard of.

I've also seen students go off to prestigious schools and end up no better in the long run than kids who went to small liberal arts colleges most people haven't heard of (those who recognized true quality in higher education would though).

Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of schools of "higher education" in America that should be shuttered because they don't provide any semblance of a quality education.

Most of them, however, are for-profit schools that make bogus promises to people about training them for "high paying jobs" as they load them up with debt that they will never be able to pay off.

But, still, we are truly blessed as a country to also have so many wonderful colleges and universities to choose from. It is one of our strengths as a nation (and please spare me the political rant about liberal teachers corrupting young minds, and so on and so forth...)

Last edited by RosieSD; 07-26-2017 at 07:15 PM..
 
Old 07-26-2017, 07:14 PM
 
Location: So Ca
15,793 posts, read 15,027,744 times
Reputation: 13707
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieSD View Post
T- either you hate poverty and want to see programs/laws put in place to help those in need, or you really don't care all that much about the actual people most likely to be living in poverty and just want to complain about our state.
The most sane post on this thread.

Let's be honest, Rosie, most of the people posting on this thread aren't really interested in education or assistance for anyone attempting to save, climb out of poverty, get a better job, etc. For whatever reason, they just feel like complaining. On thread after thread after thread....
 
Old 07-26-2017, 07:26 PM
 
1,261 posts, read 625,110 times
Reputation: 1714
[quote=jm1982;48968119]But but we are the 6th largest economy in the world .. so that makes it all better!

Things aren't going to be pretty the next recession and there will be one .

--
More than 37 percent of California households have so little cash saved that they couldn't live at the poverty level for even three months if they lost a job or suffered another significant loss of income.

Does anyone realize how FEW people, corporations, politicians control most of that wealth? Sure the numbers look rosy, but those are just that, numbers. Silicon Valley, Hollywood, the oil industry. Most farmland is owned by a handful of conglomerates, like ConAgra. Most rental properties are controlled by a handful of land management companies.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 08:56 PM
 
Location: San Diego
35,233 posts, read 32,187,063 times
Reputation: 19762
[quote=mtnbkr5;48976415]
Quote:
Originally Posted by jm1982 View Post
But but we are the 6th largest economy in the world .. so that makes it all better!

Things aren't going to be pretty the next recession and there will be one .

--
More than 37 percent of California households have so little cash saved that they couldn't live at the poverty level for even three months if they lost a job or suffered another significant loss of income.

Does anyone realize how FEW people, corporations, politicians control most of that wealth? Sure the numbers look rosy, but those are just that, numbers. Silicon Valley, Hollywood, the oil industry. Most farmland is owned by a handful of conglomerates, like ConAgra. Most rental properties are controlled by a handful of land management companies.
Where exactly are these giant farms of ConAgra? I'm from the midwest where they "grow all the food" and farms get handed down same as it's been for 100 years. Being part of a Co-op means you sell your grain to a company for an agreed price. I do business with our Co-op. They don't own my land. I'd be renting from them.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 09:26 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,876 posts, read 6,622,462 times
Reputation: 6279
Quote:
Originally Posted by payutenyodagimas View Post
do you consider Naval Academy, to which Carter graduated, as a liberal arts college or an engineering school?
It's considered a liberal arts college in that it is dedicated to undergraduate instruction as opposed to focusing on academic research.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,876 posts, read 6,622,462 times
Reputation: 6279
Quote:
Originally Posted by radiolibre99 View Post
Didn't many of those names go off to grad school where they received their real trade degree, i.e. law? Or Business?

Many people who earn a liberal arts degree learn other skills on the side, such as computer coding and such. Top firms recruit from the best schools where many have liberal arts degrees but they're willing train with internships. Most of the people that I knew that went to Ivies and interned at big investment banks majored in liberal arts not economics or finance.

But we're talking about the average person who wishes to go to their local state school and major in liberal arts. Top firms may not recruit from there and the curriculum may not require them to learn other skills.

Point is not everyone needs to go to college. It was always an intellectual pursuit by the wealthy for personal enrichment before they went off to run their parents industries. The major success with opening up higher education to the public have been when college was opened up to the lower ranks to study the hard sciences, business or law such as with City College/University of New York or the GI Bill which produced a major wave of American engineers, lawyers, and businessmen.
Let me define the classical objective of a liberal arts education, and undergraduate education in general.

It is to teach you to THINK, express yourself effectively, and learn to collaborate with others productively. It is not to train you specifically for a particular job, or for vocational purposes. Too many people think of college as a vocational tool. Or in other words, life skills.

Reason is that specific knowledge can be obsolete eventually. However, the capacity to critically think and adapt never becomes obsolete.

Case in point: When I went to college in the 1980's, they were still teaching Fortran and Pascal. These programming languages are long obsolete, but if you were trained in computer science and knew these languages, you could fairly easily learn new ones. It's the mindset, really.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 09:38 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
9,876 posts, read 6,622,462 times
Reputation: 6279
Quote:
Originally Posted by RosieSD View Post
Who determines what a "top" college is?

In most cases, it's just publishers and websites out to make money. Or perhaps your neighbor brags about the school their kid attends so you start to think that it is a "top" school.

There are just over 2400 4-year colleges and universities in America. I've actually visited about half of them.

At every single traditional college/university that I've visited, I've met bright, motivated students and talented and engaging teachers, as well as slacker kids and teachers who put me to sleep. That goes for so-called "top" schools as well as schools you've probably never heard of.

I've also seen students go off to prestigious schools and end up no better in the long run than kids who went to small liberal arts colleges most people haven't heard of (those who recognized true quality in higher education would though).

Don't get me wrong: there are a lot of schools of "higher education" in America that should be shuttered because they don't provide any semblance of a quality education.

Most of them, however, are for-profit schools that make bogus promises to people about training them for "high paying jobs" as they load them up with debt that they will never be able to pay off.

But, still, we are truly blessed as a country to also have so many wonderful colleges and universities to choose from. It is one of our strengths as a nation (and please spare me the political rant about liberal teachers corrupting young minds, and so on and so forth...)
Yes!
 
Old 07-26-2017, 09:48 PM
 
10,097 posts, read 7,546,557 times
Reputation: 5225
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
Let me define the classical objective of a liberal arts education, and undergraduate education in general.

It is to teach you to THINK, express yourself effectively, and learn to collaborate with others productively. It is not to train you specifically for a particular job, or for vocational purposes. Too many people think of college as a vocational tool. Or in other words, life skills.

Reason is that specific knowledge can be obsolete eventually. However, the capacity to critically think and adapt never becomes obsolete.

Case in point: When I went to college in the 1980's, they were still teaching Fortran and Pascal. These programming languages are long obsolete, but if you were trained in computer science and knew these languages, you could fairly easily learn new ones. It's the mindset, really.
Of course, I totally agree with you. I think that a liberal arts education has helped me tremendously in that regard. I don't doubt anything you're saying and I have seen it in my life too.

But most people do not think that matters and they would prefer the life skills necessary to get a job right out the gate. I understand that because people are generally looking to pay for a type of vocational training of sorts.
 
Old 07-26-2017, 09:57 PM
 
7,354 posts, read 4,459,339 times
Reputation: 9012
Quote:
Originally Posted by silverkris View Post
It's considered a liberal arts college in that it is dedicated to undergraduate instruction as opposed to focusing on academic research.
Yes, and the Naval academy is. That's why it has the Carnegie Classification it does.

One of the benefits of a liberal arts college is that the entire institution is focused on undergraduate education.

At research universities, the focus is divided between undergraduate and graduate education.

Good point and contribution, as always, silverkris.
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