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Old 09-23-2017, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
30,893 posts, read 13,434,612 times
Reputation: 21996

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
This is the same thing with health care. If people had to pay the market rate for their health care they would make better life choices.
No, actually if people had to pay market rate for healthcare only the wealthy would receive medical care of serious illness or injury.

Average Cost 2013

Hip Replacement $60,185
Chemotherapy $57,073
Bone Marrow Transplant $299,253
Hernia Repair $60,367
There are more here http://medical-procedures.healthgrove.com/

Are you prepared to pay the market rate for those procedures, particularly after you adjust them to 2017 prices? I know that I'm not.

 
Old 09-23-2017, 11:02 AM
 
Location: So Ca
15,615 posts, read 14,886,129 times
Reputation: 13541
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgrdr View Post
Also, insurance companies worked to undermine the process by jacking up their rates before the ACA was even passed or implemented. Steady blaming the ACA as part of its propaganda campaign, before it even went into effect, has been part of the sabotage.
That's for sure.

Quote:
Americans have been convinced to blame each other for needing healthcare instead of banding together to protect each other and ourselves over what should be a fundamental right in the 21st century.

Keep in mind that during this entire period, insurance companies have been and still are raking in billions in profits.
I wonder if Senator McCain would be against this most recent ACA repeal bill if he had not developed an aggressive brain cancer. He must know, first hand, what it's like to have a serious illness that requires expensive, exhaustive medical care.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 12:23 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,300 posts, read 7,932,113 times
Reputation: 6464
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
No, actually if people had to pay market rate for healthcare only the wealthy would receive medical care of serious illness or injury.

Average Cost 2013

Hip Replacement $60,185
Chemotherapy $57,073
Bone Marrow Transplant $299,253
Hernia Repair $60,367
There are more here http://medical-procedures.healthgrove.com/

Are you prepared to pay the market rate for those procedures, particularly after you adjust them to 2017 prices? I know that I'm not.
If people paid market rate for health care costs would go down instead of up because people would price shop and medical providers would compete for business. A perfect example of this is the rapid price drops in lasik eye surgery.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 12:25 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,300 posts, read 7,932,113 times
Reputation: 6464
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
I completely agree with what you just said. I have family in France and Norway, their sentiments are exactly the same as those you shared. They said they would never relocate to the US and they don't know anyone who would that the system in the US is deviously rigged to always advantage the ultra wealthy.
The health care systems is Europe are the same towards the ultra wealthy. They pay their way for good care and everyone else gets rationed care and months of wait times often to be denied needed surgerys for non life threatening conditions like knee replacements.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 12:55 PM
 
Location: Paranoid State
13,047 posts, read 10,369,264 times
Reputation: 15672
Quote:
Originally Posted by pgrdr View Post
Steady blaming the ACA as part of its propaganda campaign, before it even went into effect, has been part of the sabotage. Americans have been convinced to blame each other for needing healthcare instead of banding together to protect each other and ourselves over what should be a fundamental right in the 21st century.
Neither pre-ACA, nor ACA, nor any version of post-ACA being discussed in Congress addresses the underlying issue that health care costs too much in this country. We consume on average about $10,000 per person per year of health care nationwide. THEREFORE, as surely as night follows day, any healthcare insurance to cover $10K per year of consumption MUST cost at least $10K per year plus administrative costs plus profit.

The issue is NOT the price of insurance.
The issue is the underlying price of healthcare that the insurance pays for.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgrdr View Post
Keep in mind that during this entire period, insurance companies have been and still are raking in billions in profits. That's "profits." You know, the fluffy frosting on the cake after meeting Every Single cost of doing business. Billions in profits.
Factually incorrect. One of the provisions in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (a.k.a ACA, a.k.a. Health Reform, a.k.a. Obamacare) is that it limits the profits of health insurance companies.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgrdr View Post
Most of the rest of the world manages to provide access to quality healthcare for all of their citizens, yet the USA can't do it? What's wrong with this picture folks?
You are mixing up health insurance with health care.

Most of the rest of the world consumes about $2,500 per person per year in health care vs. the USA where we consume about $10,000 per person per year. We spend 4x what other countries spend on health care, so the insurance for health care costs 4x as well.

This has NOTHING TO DO WITH ACA OR ANY OTHER FORM OF INSURANCE. It has NOTHING to do with Obamacare, pre-Obamacare, or any proposal to replace Obamacare. it has EVERYTHING to do with the underlying cost of medical care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgrdr View Post

From the get-go, Republicans have been parroting insurance industry propaganda, protecting the rapcious pharmaceutical industry, and selling us down the river. They don't give a rat's-patootie whether we live or die. Their families matter, but ours don't.
This has NOTHING to do with insurance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pgrdr View Post
Follow the money. Always follow the money, and there you will find the culprits.
Yes, that's true. The culprit in this case is we'eve seen a 10x reduction in productivity in the health care industry in the USA. Here is one tangible example: my personal doctor, a cardiologist, has about 18 staff people in his office. There are no other physicians -- just himself. Yet he has a staff of about 18. That includes some nurses, a couple techs for treadmill tests, a tech for echocardiograms -- but the rest are pure administration: scheduling, billing, insurance specialists, and the like who do not provide health care but are on the payroll nevertheless.

So he has a payroll of about 18 -- and he also has to pay for the capital equipment plus all the other expenses of running a medical practice.

That is an example of why health care costs too much -- and therefore insurance costs too much.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 01:02 PM
 
Location: So Ca
15,615 posts, read 14,886,129 times
Reputation: 13541
Quote:
Originally Posted by SportyandMisty View Post
Factually incorrect. One of the provisions in the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (a.k.a ACA, a.k.a. Health Reform, a.k.a. Obamacare) is that it limits the profits of health insurance companies.
And what might that limit on their profit be? They're certainly raking it in.

Anthem 4th quarter profit jumps nearly $190 million over 2015 | Healthcare Finance News

Health insurers rake in big profits ... but not from Obamacare - Jun. 15, 2017

Profits are booming at health insurance companies: https://www.axios.com/profits-are-bo...418194773.html

Healthcare shocker: These insurers are making money on Obamacare - LA Times
 
Old 09-23-2017, 02:26 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
30,893 posts, read 13,434,612 times
Reputation: 21996
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
If people paid market rate for health care costs would go down instead of up because people would price shop and medical providers would compete for business. A perfect example of this is the rapid price drops in lasik eye surgery.
There things to consider before you make that grand leap in logic Lasik has lost a good deal of popularity with only about 40% of the number of surgeries being performed in 2016 compared to 15 years earlier. The entire procedure takes less than 10 minutes per eye and it is entirely elective and you have all the time in the world to price shop.

The cost of having an appendectomy or chemotherapy is not likely to drop to anything even close to what the average American could pay out of pocket and providers have you by the short hairs because you need that appendectomy before your appendix ruptures, you don't have time to shop for a good deal on the internet But even if prices dropped 50% which I don't see as ever happening, how many people can pay over $30,000 for a hernia repair?
 
Old 09-23-2017, 02:28 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
30,893 posts, read 13,434,612 times
Reputation: 21996
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
The health care systems is Europe are the same towards the ultra wealthy. They pay their way for good care and everyone else gets rationed care and months of wait times often to be denied needed surgerys for non life threatening conditions like knee replacements.
No they aren't I have family in France and Norway and friends in Canada, you are simply repeating the tired old conservative lie that has kept us from developing a decent healthcare system.
 
Old 09-23-2017, 03:20 PM
 
Location: So Ca
15,615 posts, read 14,886,129 times
Reputation: 13541
Quote:
Originally Posted by shooting4life View Post
If people paid market rate for health care costs would go down instead of up because people would price shop and medical providers would compete for business. A perfect example of this is the rapid price drops in lasik eye surgery.
When your kid falls and breaks his arm, do you price shop for an orthopedic surgeon? When your aunt develops breast cancer, does she shop around for a doctor to perform the mastectomy? When your appendix bursts, do you check prices on an appendectomy? So you can't really put lasik surgery, a completely elective surgery, in the same category (and which is why it isn't usually covered under health insurance plans).
 
Old 09-23-2017, 08:59 PM
 
Location: SF Bay Area
12,300 posts, read 7,932,113 times
Reputation: 6464
Quote:
Originally Posted by CA4Now View Post
When your kid falls and breaks his arm, do you price shop for an orthopedic surgeon? When your aunt develops breast cancer, does she shop around for a doctor to perform the mastectomy? When your appendix bursts, do you check prices on an appendectomy? So you can't really put lasik surgery, a completely elective surgery, in the same category (and which is why it isn't usually covered under health insurance plans).
The vast majority of surgery is not emergency in nature.

Price shopping setting s broken bone or where to get chemo treatments is complete reasonable. The vast majority of surgeries have more than enough times to price shop. Especially since the most people are in major metro areas with multiple hospitals. This isn't to say that emergency surgeries are never needed; but you are talking about less than a few percentage points of all surgeries completed.
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