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Old 09-05-2017, 02:34 PM
 
1,332 posts, read 617,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
They have it. You can buy at Home Depot & other big box stores. Just google "wall unit AC and heat"

https://www.google.com/search?source...k1.DY4qLHDmhaQ
So it appears they are available. Actually I seen them installed in some buildings. They are super energy efficient can heat and cool and does not pool water or drip unlike box window units, Its just that for some reason they are twice as more expensive as those in Asia and many times more expensive than window units in the US. I guess due to lack of demand.

Though people in CA particularly those who live in apartments/condos with no air ducts and window unit a/c or no a/c at all should just bite the bullet and buy reverse cycle A/Cs to replace those inefficient fire hazard wall board space heaters that are either natural gas or electric heat strips when they keep breaking down.

Recently I heard there are dual fueled units/furnaces that can use both natural gas and reverse cycle. That would be great particularly where there are solar power available. Solar water heating is also a good idea for California which are already used in buildings and pools.

Last edited by citizensadvocate; 09-05-2017 at 03:01 PM..
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Old 09-06-2017, 02:37 PM
 
Location: Silicon Valley
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Historically, the ratio between the cost of a kWh of electricity and a therm of gas has not made heat pumps cost effective in PG&E land. At our house in Las Vegas, a therm of gas costs about the same as 5kWh of electricity, so heat pumps are cost effective and common.

In PG&E land, when the marginal cost of a kWh of electricity in Tier 4 was $0.48, and a therm of gas was around $1.50, a heat pump could not compete with a gas furnace. With the new tariff structure though, which eliminated half the tiers, a therm of gas is now over 5x the cost of a kWh, so you could revisit the heat pump vs gas furnace decision.

With a dual-fuel system, you can look up the COP charts and based on the ratio of energy prices, determine the temperature at which you should lock out your heat pump condenser and switch to gas heat only. A sophisticated thermostat has an input for an outdoor temp sender and a settable heat pump lockout point. At the low temperatures where the COP of a heat pump really drops off, most people prefer the warm toasty air from a gas furnace compared to the lukewarm output of a heat pump.
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Old 09-06-2017, 03:52 PM
 
1,332 posts, read 617,001 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MediocreButArrogant View Post
Historically, the ratio between the cost of a kWh of electricity and a therm of gas has not made heat pumps cost effective in PG&E land. At our house in Las Vegas, a therm of gas costs about the same as 5kWh of electricity, so heat pumps are cost effective and common.

In PG&E land, when the marginal cost of a kWh of electricity in Tier 4 was $0.48, and a therm of gas was around $1.50, a heat pump could not compete with a gas furnace. With the new tariff structure though, which eliminated half the tiers, a therm of gas is now over 5x the cost of a kWh, so you could revisit the heat pump vs gas furnace decision.

With a dual-fuel system, you can look up the COP charts and based on the ratio of energy prices, determine the temperature at which you should lock out your heat pump condenser and switch to gas heat only. A sophisticated thermostat has an input for an outdoor temp sender and a settable heat pump lockout point. At the low temperatures where the COP of a heat pump really drops off, most people prefer the warm toasty air from a gas furnace compared to the lukewarm output of a heat pump.
Out of curiosity any reason that California electric rates were historically more expensive than the rest of the country? I know that gasoline is more expensive due to special blend in addition to taxes.

Thats why natural gas seems more popular long before the 2001 Enron bankruptcy which caused electricity to skyrocket.

Most residents of California with the three major utility companies PG&E, SCE, and SDG&E pay an average of around 22c a kilowatt hour year round with the tiered rates. I know other parts of the country they pay about 13c a kilowatt hour on average these days.

Though with more and more residential solar panel installations these years it appears heat pumps aka reverse cycle a/c and dual fueled systems would have a great future.

They are also great in apartment/condos that use wall board heaters which often use electricity. In that they can both heat and cool while controlling moisture and cost less than to operate a electric resistive heater.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:45 PM
DKM
 
Location: Thousand Oaks, CA
2,761 posts, read 971,853 times
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Originally Posted by citizensadvocate View Post
Out of curiosity any reason that California electric rates were historically more expensive than the rest of the country? I know that gasoline is more expensive due to special blend in addition to taxes.
I was told when I moved here its because of the requirement to generate electricity from renewables. This is the same reason why everyone here seems to have gas dryers. They made electricity expensive so people use gas. The same thing will happen when water conservation is forced through higher rates, people will switch their yards to something that needs less water.
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Old 09-06-2017, 05:51 PM
 
Location: SoCal
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Originally Posted by citizensadvocate View Post
Out of curiosity any reason that California electric rates were historically more expensive than the rest of the country?
California does not like nuclear power plants.
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Old 09-07-2017, 01:23 AM
 
1,332 posts, read 617,001 times
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Originally Posted by HB2HSV View Post
California does not like nuclear power plants.
Tell me about it, the shut down of San Onfre SONGS plant in 2012, a major power producer for such a massive population, had pretty much caused a second CA energy crisis which the news was surprisingly quiet about but people do feel pain in their pocketbooks for every bill since then as the price per kilowatt hour had skyrocketed since, in addition to extra fees associated with decommissioning the plant itself which is a massive expense on its own.

I bet this would not had happened if it haven't for Fukishima. Though thats not all, there will be even more energy shortages and electricity rate hikes when they shut down Diablo Canyon, the last operational nuclear plant in the state, completely in 2020, as outlined in their long term plan. I can just imagine how much the per kilowatt hour cost will be when that happens.
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:40 PM
 
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We've got gazzzzzzz. Lots of it (and I'm not talking about side effects of super burritos).

Very little market for heat pumps here.
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Old 09-07-2017, 12:49 PM
 
1,332 posts, read 617,001 times
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Solar panels should make electricity more attractive as solar owners pay zero electric bills just the monthly payment for the equipment. Might as well use it for heating and not just lighting and cooling the home.

Reverse cycle A/Cs make much sense when those old fire hazard wall heaters that doesn't provide cooling go out.

I am curious so North Carolina, Virginia, and Texas doesn't have much natural gas? I always thought Texas has plenty of natural gas as they have a lot of oil beneath their ground.

Though solar panels are becoming a necessity in California as they continue to shut down major power plants while the population continues to grow. Pretty counter intiative I say. Your population is still growing fast but you are getting rid of power plants that can produce large amounts of power for an ever growing population?
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