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Old 03-15-2019, 11:27 AM
 
8,562 posts, read 2,738,155 times
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I'm in favor of the death penalty for any governor who unilaterally abandons it.
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Old 03-15-2019, 11:34 AM
 
Location: On the water.
17,585 posts, read 10,075,370 times
Reputation: 14739
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsaw View Post
As a retired attorney I remember my reaction in the 1970s when the Supreme Court put a hold on executions. I looked at it as pretty arrogant for a nine member body to substitute their personal political and cultural values for those of an entire populace. I thought the same when other governors have done the same as Newsom did here.

And I fully understand how modern society has lost its stomach for carrying out executions. Most of us after all wouldn't want to be personally involved.

But some of the opinions about it are wrong. It IS for instance a strong deterrent to certain types of crimes. Contract murder is one (I won't go into it here but there's factual evidence for that). And it does alleviate the taking of vigilante justice that will occur if the state doesn't do it. I don't think we want to encourage jungle justice by the general public. I don't think we want to encourage other inmates "to do it for us". Which they will definitely do. Especially if the perpetrator harmed children. Inmates are known for having no tolerance of that.

Another thing people don't consider is, a life behind bars does no one any good. If execution accomplishes nothing, life without parole accomplishes less. Somebody has to pay for that and provide the free medical care of the elderly behind bars. And no way out of that mess because most of these people are far too dangerous to release. They'd kill again. So it's just a wasted and diseased life that should have been ended quickly a long time ago. And to not end it does no one any favors.

Another thing that is incorrect is the view that life behind bars is a punishment in itself. Depends. For some or even many it is NOT that bad. Just one example. The famous "Iceman". You know who he was. Killed by his own admission 200 people. Finally caught and given a life sentence. But he like others do just as well in prison as on the outside. He got to consort and hobnob with all his mafia pals and was looked up to and treated with respect. And then we have characters like those of the AB, who actually ran their criminal enterprises from behind bars. Many of these couldn't even function on the outside. Prison can be a step up believe it or not.

Finally, we have were this is all going. It'll wind up like in Europe where murder at most means a few years in jail and then freedom. Let me put that differently. Do you follow what they call intellectual history? The history of political ideas? Well, when abolition of the death penalty finally occurs, guess what's next. Do you think those opposed to the death penalty for murder will pack up their tents and go away? Hardly. The next crusade will be (drumroll please) get rid of life sentences for murder without possibility of parole. Life without parole will absolutely be the NEW issue and you will start hearing how "cruel and unusual" it is.

At that point and when it comes, which it will, you will get to experience what as a practical matter amounts to the legalization of murder. Newsom just took another big step forward in that direction.

But, give him credit as a politician. He at the same time just check marked another box on the list of requirements to run for president as his party's candidate...
You mean Europe where there’s been a much lower rate of murder than in the US for the last 60 years of statistics? So letting people off after a few years does what again?

But then, your entire commentary is flawed from top to bottom.
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Old 03-15-2019, 01:03 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
38,073 posts, read 17,991,850 times
Reputation: 27973
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsaw View Post
As a retired attorney I remember my reaction in the 1970s when the Supreme Court put a hold on executions. I looked at it as pretty arrogant for a nine member body to substitute their personal political and cultural values for those of an entire populace. I thought the same when other governors have done the same as Newsom did here.

And I fully understand how modern society has lost its stomach for carrying out executions. Most of us after all wouldn't want to be personally involved.

But some of the opinions about it are wrong. It IS for instance a strong deterrent to certain types of crimes. Contract murder is one. And it does alleviate the taking of vigilante justice that will occur if the state doesn't do it. I don't think we want to encourage jungle justice by the general public. I don't think we want to encourage other inmates "to do it for us". Which they will definitely do. Especially if the perpetrator harmed children. Inmates are known for having no tolerance of that.

Another thing people don't consider is, a life behind bars does no one any good. If execution accomplishes nothing, life without parole accomplishes less. Somebody has to pay for that and provide the free medical care of the elderly behind bars. And no way out of that mess because most of these people are far too dangerous to release. They'd kill again. So it's just a wasted and diseased life that should have been ended quickly a long time ago. And to not end it does no one any favors.

Another thing that is incorrect is the view that life behind bars is a punishment in itself. Depends. For some or even many it is NOT that bad. Just one example. The famous "Iceman". You know who he was. Killed by his own admission 200 people. Finally caught and given a life sentence. But he like others do just as well in prison as on the outside. He got to consort and hobnob with all his mafia pals and was looked up to and treated with respect. And then we have characters like those of the AB, who actually ran their criminal enterprises from behind bars. Many of these couldn't even function on the outside. Prison can be a step up believe it or not.

Finally, we have were this is all going. It'll wind up like in Europe where murder at most means a few years in jail and then freedom. Let me put that differently. Do you follow what they call intellectual history? The history of political ideas? Well, when abolition of the death penalty finally occurs, guess what's next. Do you think those opposed to the death penalty for murder will pack up their tents and go away? Hardly. The next crusade will be (drumroll please) get rid of life sentences for murder without possibility of parole. Life without parole will absolutely be the NEW issue and you will start hearing how "cruel and unusual" it is.

At that point and when it comes, which it will, you will get to experience what as a practical matter amounts to the legalization of murder. Newsom just took another big step forward in that direction.

But, give him credit as a politician. He at the same time just check marked another box on the list of requirements to run for president as his party's candidate...
Sorry but I don't think state sanctioned murder is ok, not under any conditions. And how much does the length of a prison sentence have on recidivism? Maybe people who receive an education and mental health treatment as they do in most European prisons have better outcomes than our inmates who are forced to join gangs to avoid being attacked by other inmates. I have always thought we would have better outcomes if we locked up the people we are afraid of rather than every petty criminal we are angry with.

To me it's insane to sentence a 15 or 16 year old child to life in prison without the possibility of parole. That's tantamount to saying that people can never change, that even children are irredeemable..such a tragic and uniquely American theory.

So maybe we need to take a few steps down that slippery slope that you refer to so that we can move past draconian sentences that do nothing more than turn people into better criminals. Maybe one day we could even get to the point where our treatment of criminals is evidence based and we can finally beyond Calvinism.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:18 PM
 
13,717 posts, read 11,783,699 times
Reputation: 24369
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2sleepy View Post
To me it's insane to sentence a 15 or 16 year old child to life in prison without the possibility of parole. That's tantamount to saying that people can never change, that even children are irredeemable..such a tragic and uniquely American theory.
I partly agree with this. A life sentence w/o possibility of parole is not something I'd want for a youngster who hasn't matured enough to grasp the enormity of their actions. Teens or rather those under the age of 21 aren't mature enough to make the best decisions. Although, there are some who are just plain mean and could be considered bad seeds from the get-go. Some never change yet many do. This is why ALL juveniles facing a variety of heinous acts must go through a WIC 707(b) Fitness Hearing. They must meet the five criteria to be transferred to adult court and even if they do, could still be separated from adult prison and confined in a juvenile facility and released at age 25. I can't condone letting all juvenile offender off simply because they were minors at the time of the offense. But, by and large a lifetime commitment for something they did as a minor is just not right. People change. I've seen it happen which is why every case should be examined individually and not painted with a wide brush ... not when it comes to kids.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:27 PM
 
389 posts, read 129,005 times
Reputation: 374
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsaw View Post
And to not end it does no one any favors.
except the innocent. and if it does no one any favours, then why are so many countries ending it? occasionally there are regrets from some, the exceptions that prove the rule.
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Old 03-15-2019, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Ocotillo, Chandler, AZ
684 posts, read 660,156 times
Reputation: 1116
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ginsaw View Post
As a retired attorney I remember my reaction in the 1970s when the Supreme Court put a hold on executions. I looked at it as pretty arrogant for a nine member body to substitute their personal political and cultural values for those of an entire populace. I thought the same when other governors have done the same as Newsom did here.

And I fully understand how modern society has lost its stomach for carrying out executions. Most of us after all wouldn't want to be personally involved.

But some of the opinions about it are wrong. It IS for instance a strong deterrent to certain types of crimes. Contract murder is one. And it does alleviate the taking of vigilante justice that will occur if the state doesn't do it. I don't think we want to encourage jungle justice by the general public. I don't think we want to encourage other inmates "to do it for us". Which they will definitely do. Especially if the perpetrator harmed children. Inmates are known for having no tolerance of that.

Another thing people don't consider is, a life behind bars does no one any good. If execution accomplishes nothing, life without parole accomplishes less. Somebody has to pay for that and provide the free medical care of the elderly behind bars. And no way out of that mess because most of these people are far too dangerous to release. They'd kill again. So it's just a wasted and diseased life that should have been ended quickly a long time ago. And to not end it does no one any favors.

Another thing that is incorrect is the view that life behind bars is a punishment in itself. Depends. For some or even many it is NOT that bad. Just one example. The famous "Iceman". You know who he was. Killed by his own admission 200 people. Finally caught and given a life sentence. But he like others do just as well in prison as on the outside. He got to consort and hobnob with all his mafia pals and was looked up to and treated with respect. And then we have characters like those of the AB, who actually ran their criminal enterprises from behind bars. Many of these couldn't even function on the outside. Prison can be a step up believe it or not.

Finally, we have were this is all going. It'll wind up like in Europe where murder at most means a few years in jail and then freedom. Let me put that differently. Do you follow what they call intellectual history? The history of political ideas? Well, when abolition of the death penalty finally occurs, guess what's next. Do you think those opposed to the death penalty for murder will pack up their tents and go away? Hardly. The next crusade will be (drumroll please) get rid of life sentences for murder without possibility of parole. Life without parole will absolutely be the NEW issue and you will start hearing how "cruel and unusual" it is.

At that point and when it comes, which it will, you will get to experience what as a practical matter amounts to the legalization of murder. Newsom just took another big step forward in that direction.

But, give him credit as a politician. He at the same time just check marked another box on the list of requirements to run for president as his party's candidate...
Unless the justice system becomes 100% flawless in catching, investigating, and going through trial, then innocent people will be executed, as has already happened numerous times. And even 1 wrongful execution is reason enough to get rid of it. We can revisit this once the justice system becomes flawless. An innocent person locked up for a few days or a few months is one thing. An innocent person being executed is another thing. It's not just "well, it's unfortunate", it is completely horrific and heinous and there need to be punishments for everyone involved who damn well knew better (tampering with evidence, forcing false confessions, lazy investigating just to catch an easy target, purely circumstantial evidence, etc).

Still not really OK with the death penalty in general, but I do agree that for many people, prison is not punishment, and they thrive in there or are simply beyond rehabilitation. So there has to be some other solution than merely killing them or throwing away the key, that also keeps people safe at the same time.
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Old 03-15-2019, 03:28 PM
 
Location: 912 feet above sea level
2,268 posts, read 1,077,188 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RationalExpectations View Post
I'm in favor of the death penalty for any governor who unilaterally abandons it.
California had a gubernatorial election in November. One of the candidates in that election repeatedly campaigned on, among other things, a pledge to affect a moratorium on the death penalty.

That candidate won by a margin of 24%. And he kept his campaign pledge.

Interestingly, California has a lower violent crime rate than two of its three neighbors. Oregon has a much lower violent crime rate (which has had in place a death penalty moratorium since 2011). Arizona (all executions on hold since 2014, per order of the state Attorney General) and Nevada (de facto moratorium on executions since 2006) have higher violent crime rates.

Of course, a lot of people couldn't care less about the crime rate - they just like seeing people executed. And they're more interested in whining about California than focusing on their own state's issues.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:19 PM
 
Location: Scottsdale
1,331 posts, read 556,777 times
Reputation: 1738
What @ginsaw said... the progressives won't stop until there are no more of these so called military industrial prison complexes, or whatever it is they are paranoid about.

So sad what they've done to California. I wonder how it call came about looking back.
It all evolved quickly since the 90s, I feel. The 80s here were great.
Then they started getting radical and well organized.
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:24 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
38,073 posts, read 17,991,850 times
Reputation: 27973
Quote:
Originally Posted by veritased View Post
What @ginsaw said... the progressives won't stop until there are no more of these so called military industrial prison complexes, or whatever it is they are paranoid about.

So sad what they've done to California. I wonder how it call came about looking back.
It all evolved quickly since the 90s, I feel. The 80s here were great.
Then they started getting radical and well organized.
If you want I can help you create a macro for that, then you won't need to keep typing it out
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Old 03-15-2019, 08:36 PM
 
Location: Living rent free in your head
38,073 posts, read 17,991,850 times
Reputation: 27973
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhoenixSomeday View Post
Unless the justice system becomes 100% flawless in catching, investigating, and going through trial, then innocent people will be executed, as has already happened numerous times. And even 1 wrongful execution is reason enough to get rid of it. We can revisit this once the justice system becomes flawless. An innocent person locked up for a few days or a few months is one thing. An innocent person being executed is another thing. It's not just "well, it's unfortunate", it is completely horrific and heinous and there need to be punishments for everyone involved who damn well knew better (tampering with evidence, forcing false confessions, lazy investigating just to catch an easy target, purely circumstantial evidence, etc).

Still not really OK with the death penalty in general, but I do agree that for many people, prison is not punishment, and they thrive in there or are simply beyond rehabilitation. So there has to be some other solution than merely killing them or throwing away the key, that also keeps people safe at the same time.
In California, prison is definitely punishment, especially if you are a lifer.

"VACAVILLE (CBS/AP) — Nearly 15 hours after a riot at a Northern California prison, guards found a missing inmate sawed nearly in two, with his abdominal organs and most chest organs removed, his body folded and stuffed into a garbage can in a shower stall a few doors from his cell. "https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/20...rgans-missing/

"A 19-year-old inmate at Salinas Valley State Prison died Monday after being stabbed in his head, neck and chest three days earlier. Two inmates, including a Castroville man convicted of murder, have been named as suspects and are being segregated from the rest of the prison population as the investigation continues."
https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ed/1036622001/

"A 33-year-old inmate was killed in his cell within one of Salinas Valley State Prison's maximum security yards on Monday night. Around 9 p.m., Armando Wehr was found unresponsive with multiple wounds in his cell, according to prison officials Wehr entered prison in March 2011 from Contra Costa County with a sentence of life with the possibility of parole for second-degree murder, plus 25 years for intentional discharge of a firearm, prison officials said. He is at least the fourth inmate to have been killed at the prison since the start of the year. "https://www.thecalifornian.com/story...ed/1660249002/

"An inmate death at Corcoran State Prison is being investigated as a homicide, according to prison officials. The 44-year-old male inmate was found dead in his cell around 7:30 a.m. . According to prison officials, his cellmate, Jaime Osuna, is considered a suspect. Osuna, 31, is serving a life sentence for first-degree murder, attempted first-degree murder and assault with a deadly weapon. The Bakersfield Californian reported that Osuna, who goes by the nickname “Lokito,” was convicted of the 2011 killing of Yvette Pena in Bakersfield. "https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local...227367789.html

There are dozens more...
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