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Old 02-22-2022, 01:21 PM
 
424 posts, read 229,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
Austin and Nashville have experienced similar problems, but Boise and Idaho in general are so much more isolated and cut off from the rest of the country that I wonder how on earth they'll be able to keep this sudden surge of transplants happy once the local infrastructure starts to rip apart at the seams.
Boise isn't isolated. It's part of a metro area of 800k people. It has a decent size airport. It's about a 6 hrs drive to Portland and 5 hrs to Salt Lake City. It's fascinating to hear a Californian express concern about infrastructure failing in Idaho. Projecting much? We don't have PSPS events or rolling blackouts, we've lost power once in two years (duration: 2 hrs), my internet (symmetric gigabit) is faster and more reliable than it was in CA. Infrastructure is largely a function of investment.
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Old 02-22-2022, 01:21 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
6,169 posts, read 7,751,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnythingOutdoors View Post
How many people are getting paid the official minimum wage? The drive-thru burger place down the street from us is paying $12.50/hr starting. With tips that's more like $15-$16, and they're still struggling to fill positions.
Average rents for a 1BR apartment in Boise look to be around $1500 a month, which even on $12.50 an hour/40 hrs a week is nowhere near "affordable".

Again, this is a major problem for the area, which is unfortunate, because it's a nice place to live with great access to the outdoors and decent year round weather. Given insane construction costs, I don't think simply building more housing is going to fix what's a clear affordability crisis. Aside from expanding its relatively small tech industry, along with some state government jobs, I don't see Boise being able to magically create a super business friendly climate anytime soon...

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnythingOutdoors View Post
Boise isn't isolated. It's part of a metro area of 800k people. It has a decent size airport. It's about a 6 hrs drive to Portland and 5 hrs to Salt Lake City. It's fascinating to hear a Californian express concern about infrastructure failing in Idaho. Projecting much? We don't have PSPS events or rolling blackouts, we've lost power once in two years (duration: 2 hrs), my internet (symmetric gigabit) is faster and more reliable than it was in CA. Infrastructure is largely a function of investment.
Agree to disagree when it comes to isolation and having a convenient airport. I don't think being 5 hours from Salt Lake City or 6 to PDX helps your argument at all, and I certainly wouldn't call the airport's ACCESS decent, unless you only want to stick to places west of the Rockies. One of my brother's biggest gripes is not being able to get back East without either spending a fortune for a connecting flight, or he has to put up with 2-3 connections. I guess if regular travel across the country isn't important, this may not matter, but it's the same huge knock I have on the Bend, OR area, despite it being a lovely place to visit and vacation. I'm not "projecting", so much as predicting. I'm not an Idaho hater by any means, but I think we both agree that the ship has sailed in terms of Boise becoming a 'cheap' alternative to what many Californians are after (i.e scenery, outdoor recreation, decent weather, etc). You've already admitted that houses are overvalued and people are going nuts trying to get in-- what's next to follow is traffic/sprawl, and eventually a growing homeless population.

Last edited by 04kL4nD; 02-22-2022 at 01:31 PM..
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Old 02-22-2022, 02:09 PM
 
424 posts, read 229,907 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
Average rents for a 1BR apartment in Boise look to be around $1500 a month, which even on $12.50 an hour/40 hrs a week is nowhere near "affordable".

Again, this is a major problem for the area, which is unfortunate, because it's a nice place to live with great access to the outdoors and decent year round weather. Given insane construction costs, I don't think simply building more housing is going to fix what's a clear affordability crisis. Aside from expanding its relatively small tech industry, along with some state government jobs, I don't see Boise being able to magically create a super business friendly climate anytime soon...
It is indeed a problem for Boise. We've had a large influx of people from other states, including many from CA looking for more affordability. IMO, California has exported its self inflicted housing crisis to neighboring states. We're building higher density housing in downtown and along transit corridors, and the burbs are expanding (not my preferred growth, but better than people being homeless). But we're having difficulty keeping up with demand.

That $12.50/hr job is really more like $15/hr with tips.

Now, your turn. What's the average rent for a 1BR in Oakland and how affordable is this on $15/hr min wage?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
Agree to disagree when it comes to isolation and having a convenient airport. I don't think being 5 hours from Salt Lake City or 6 to PDX helps your argument at all, and I certainly wouldn't call the airport's ACCESS decent, unless you only want to stick to places west of the Rockies. One of my brother's biggest gripes is not being able to get back East without either spending a fortune for a connecting flight, or he has to put up with 2-3 connections. I guess if regular travel across the country isn't important, this may not matter, but it's the same huge knock I have on the Bend, OR area, despite it being a lovely place to visit and vacation. I'm not "projecting", so much as predicting. I'm not an Idaho hater by any means, but I think we both agree that the ship has sailed in terms of Boise becoming a 'cheap' alternative to what many Californians are after (i.e scenery, outdoor recreation, decent weather, etc). You've already admitted that houses are overvalued and people are going nuts trying to get in-- what's next to follow is traffic/sprawl, and eventually a growing homeless population.
Yes, we simply disagree. Degree of "isolation" is in the eye of the beholder and not a very useful metric. Our extended family is all in the west, so fights are a non-issue for us. Even so, if we ever need a connecting flight I consider this a very minor inconvenience. Everything we need is within a several mile radius, have never felt the least bit isolated ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't think I ever said houses here are overvalued. My general outlook is that a house is worth what someone's willing to pay for it. Yes, my home's value has increased by around 50% in 2 years. And yes, I stand by my claim that this rate of appreciation is unsustainable. That's different than overvalued. I agree with you that housing here isn't cheap, so some moving here will be disappointed if they don't do their homework first. However, most recent newcomers I meet didn't come primarily for affordable housing.

As mentioned above, sprawl is already happening in the Treasure Valley. Again, not my favorite, but better than a severe housing crisis. Boise is somewhat at a crossroads. It's 'on the map' and people from all over the US are moving here (CA, NY, TX, OR, WA, NV, AZ, NM, OK, IL, CT, FL, HI -- these are some of the out of state plates I see regularly around town). The question for Boise is: will it embrace change and plan for growth, or will an anti-growth mindset take hold (i.e. what has happened in the Bay Area) which will indeed result in worse traffic, failed infrastructure and increasing homelessness. So far, it looks like the smart urban planning faction is winning, as high density housing gets approved and the city embarks on an upzoning process. I suppose time will tell.
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Old 02-22-2022, 02:59 PM
 
Location: Lifelong Southern Californian (and happy!)
1,070 posts, read 735,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
Average rents for a 1BR apartment in Boise look to be around $1500 a month, which even on $12.50 an hour/40 hrs a week is nowhere near "affordable".

Again, this is a major problem for the area, which is unfortunate, because it's a nice place to live with great access to the outdoors and decent year round weather. Given insane construction costs, I don't think simply building more housing is going to fix what's a clear affordability crisis. Aside from expanding its relatively small tech industry, along with some state government jobs, I don't see Boise being able to magically create a super business friendly climate anytime soon...
In 2015, Coeur d'Alene, Boise, Moscow, Ketchum and a couple of other cities were looking to pass local ordinances to raise the minimum wage locally. There was a lot of activism at the local level to get these ordinances in place.

The Republican-led state legislature caught wind of it and actually passed a bill preventing cities and counties from enacting ordinances re: minimum wage. After that, all existing ordinances were nullified and any effort to create additional ones were stymied. All because....you know....Right wingers gonna right wing

Now, the minimum wage in Idaho is locked in at whatever the federal government determines it to be. The federal government uses a formula that takes into account COL expenses in all 50 states and comes up with an "average", which is why federal minimum wage is so paltry.

To a person in rural Kentucky, West Virginia or Arkansas, the federal minimum wage is sustainable. To the person in Boise or Coeur d'Alene, it's a complete joke and unsustainable. That, along with the NIMBYist lack of affordable housing and lack of local planning is going to hurt all of Idaho in the longrun.
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Old 02-22-2022, 03:38 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
6,169 posts, read 7,751,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnythingOutdoors View Post

Now, your turn. What's the average rent for a 1BR in Oakland and how affordable is this on $15/hr min wage?

Our extended family is all in the west, so fights are a non-issue for us. Even so, if we ever need a connecting flight I consider this a very minor inconvenience
I looked on Rent Cafe for both averages, and believe it or not, the average cost of a 1BR is about $1650. Oakland minimum wage is currently $15.06 per hour.

What's insane is that Oakland is usually considered to be in the top ten most expensive places to live in the entire country, and this is despite having a sky high crime rate.

I'm honestly not trying to throw stones-- I'm pointing out the real life consequences of having an influx of "priced out" Californians gobble up all of your land. You seem unhappy about it, and rightfully so, and I'm telling you that my own brother mistakenly thought moving to Idaho would be a good choice for him out West since it had such a lower COL than most places in CA. That's no longer true for him, and he will likely be leaving with two shiny degrees from BSU to somewhere that he'll earn higher wages. "Brain drain" isn't good for any community trying to lure talent. In an earlier post you pointed out CA having issues with PGE/wildfires, and the same exact fate can eventually happen to Idaho, too if it isn't careful and proactive with its forest management. You seem hopeful/optimistic that Boise will be able to ride out the current influx of Californians with "smart growth", but given how quickly this is all happening, I think what you perceive as temporary growing pains might last longer, or even grow a lot worse. We both agree that only time will tell.


One last thing: Some people like to travel internationally, which can be a lot more difficult from a place like Boise given the added expense, let alone inconvenience of having to fly to a hub. It's great that your radius is small, but some people have extended families that live all over the country (and outside of it), so this is why I consider Boise and most of Idaho to be pretty isolated, when compared to other booming metros like Austin and Nashville.

Last edited by 04kL4nD; 02-22-2022 at 03:46 PM..
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Old 02-22-2022, 04:10 PM
 
424 posts, read 229,907 times
Reputation: 1180
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
I looked on Rent Cafe for both averages, and believe it or not, the average cost of a 1BR is about $1650. Oakland minimum wage is currently $15.06 per hour.

What's insane is that Oakland is usually considered to be in the top ten most expensive places to live in the entire country, and this is despite having a sky high crime rate.

I'm honestly not trying to throw stones-- I'm pointing out the real life consequences of having an influx of "priced out" Californians gobble up all of your land. You seem unhappy about it, and rightfully so, and I'm telling you that my own brother mistakenly thought moving to Idaho would be a good choice for him out West since it had such a lower COL than most places in CA. That's no longer true for him, and he will likely be leaving with two shiny degrees from BSU to somewhere that he'll earn higher wages. "Brain drain" isn't good for any community trying to lure talent.


One last thing: Some people like to travel internationally, which is can be a lot more difficult from a place like Boise given the added expense, let alone inconvenience of having to fly to a hub. It's great that your radius is small, but some people have extended families that live all over the country (and outside of it), so this is why I consider Boise and most of Idaho to be pretty isolated, when compared to other booming metros like Austin and Nashville.
I don't believe the average 1BR in Oakland is $1650. Is this maybe for a studio apartment? Zumper reports around $2k for a 1BR vs. $1500 in Boise ($1380 studio).

I'm not at all unhappy about Californians, or anyone else, moving here. Cities are about people. Anyone that wants to move here and be a good neighbor, get involved in the community, and contribute to this place is more than welcome as far as I'm concerned. I do hope the Californians moving here leave their NIMBYism behind.

Sorry it didn't work out for your brother. I wish him all the best wherever he goes. COL is an important factor, but I don't think it should be the only or even the main factor, especially for professionals. People moving around is part of the dynamic nature of the American economy. Don't worry for us though, no "brain drain" here, lots of talent moving in and one of the fastest growing economies in the nation.

RE international travel: From our previous location in Santa Cruz County, international travel usually meant SFO or OAK (rarely SJC), so about 1 hr drive, plus time and hassle to park or get an airport shuttle (both expensive). Whereas we're now a cheap 10 minute Uber/Lyft from BOI -- I'll gladly deal with a connecting flight vs. parking or airport shuttles. I suppose this may be why our perspectives on "isolation" differ. We never felt isolated in Santa Cruz, but from our point of view Boise feels less isolated and better connected.
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Old 02-22-2022, 04:14 PM
 
5,286 posts, read 17,547,577 times
Reputation: 3791
Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
I looked on Rent Cafe for both averages, and believe it or not, the average cost of a 1BR is about $1650. Oakland minimum wage is currently $15.06 per hour.

What's insane is that Oakland is usually considered to be in the top ten most expensive places to live in the entire country, and this is despite having a sky high crime rate.

I'm honestly not trying to throw stones-- I'm pointing out the real life consequences of having an influx of "priced out" Californians gobble up all of your land. You seem unhappy about it, and rightfully so, and I'm telling you that my own brother mistakenly thought moving to Idaho would be a good choice for him out West since it had such a lower COL than most places in CA. That's no longer true for him, and he will likely be leaving with two shiny degrees from BSU to somewhere that he'll earn higher wages. "Brain drain" isn't good for any community trying to lure talent. In an earlier post you pointed out CA having issues with PGE/wildfires, and the same exact fate can eventually happen to Idaho, too if it isn't careful and proactive with its forest management. You seem hopeful/optimistic that Boise will be able to ride out the current influx of Californians with "smart growth", but given how quickly this is all happening, I think what you perceive as temporary growing pains might last longer, or even grow a lot worse. We both agree that only time will tell.


One last thing: Some people like to travel internationally, which can be a lot more difficult from a place like Boise given the added expense, let alone inconvenience of having to fly to a hub. It's great that your radius is small, but some people have extended families that live all over the country (and outside of it), so this is why I consider Boise and most of Idaho to be pretty isolated, when compared to other booming metros like Austin and Nashville.
I'm in southeast Idaho, less than 100 miles to Jackson, WY, bout the same to West Yellowstone, MT and 3 hours to SLC. Not isolated from here, especially since international travel isn't on my radar. Our COL is less than Boise as our population isn't as dense.

Keep your international airport, I'll smile at my blue skies
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Old 02-22-2022, 04:17 PM
 
Location: Oakland, CA
6,169 posts, read 7,751,129 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnythingOutdoors View Post
I don't believe the average 1BR in Oakland is $1650. Is this maybe for a studio apartment? Zumper reports around $2k for a 1BR vs. $1500 in Boise ($1380 studio).

I'm not at all unhappy about Californians, or anyone else, moving here. Cities are about people. Anyone that wants to move here and be a good neighbor, get involved in the community, and contribute to this place is more than welcome as far as I'm concerned. I do hope the Californians moving here leave their NIMBYism behind.

Sorry it didn't work out for your brother. I wish him all the best wherever he goes. COL is an important factor, but I don't think it should be the only or even the main factor, especially for professionals. People moving around is part of the dynamic nature of the American economy. Don't worry for us though, no "brain drain" here, lots of talent moving in and one of the fastest growing economies in the nation.

RE international travel: From our previous location in Santa Cruz County, international travel usually meant SFO or OAK (rarely SJC), so about 1 hr drive, plus time and hassle to park or get an airport shuttle (both expensive). Whereas we're now a cheap 10 minute Uber/Lyft from BOI -- I'll gladly deal with a connecting flight vs. parking or airport shuttles. I suppose this may be why our perspectives on "isolation" differ. We never felt isolated in Santa Cruz, but from our point of view Boise feels less isolated and better connected.
As I said before, I used Rent Cafe to pull up both figures, but here's an article that says the MEDIAN 1 BR is around $1600, so it can't be too far off...

https://www.ktvu.com/news/report-oak...nt-in-bay-area

Quote:
Within the Bay Area, the latest figures showed the city had the least expensive rents in the region, as prices fell 0.2% over the past month.

The data from Apartment List showed the city’s median for a one-bedroom apartment was $1,639. It was $1,938 for a two-bedroom.
Quote:
Originally Posted by cleosmom View Post
I'm in southeast Idaho, less than 100 miles to Jackson, WY, bout the same to West Yellowstone, MT and 3 hours to SLC. Not isolated from here, especially since international travel isn't on my radar. Our COL is less than Boise as our population isn't as dense.

Keep your international airport, I'll smile at my blue skies
I've been to Jackson, WY several times and it's lovely, but it's isolated, too. You may not feel that way, but ask anyone who regularly travels across the country via plane for work (or leisure) and they know exactly what I'm talking about. Enjoy not feeling isolated, when in all practical terms you are. Hey, it's one of the perks of country/rural living. Why deny it?
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Old 02-22-2022, 04:49 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post
I've been to Jackson, WY several times and it's lovely, but it's isolated, too. You may not feel that way, but ask anyone who regularly travels across the country via plane for work (or leisure) and they know exactly what I'm talking about. Enjoy not feeling isolated, when in all practical terms you are. Hey, it's one of the perks of country/rural living. Why deny it?
Wait, are you really comparing Jackson Hole (30k metro) to Boise (800k metro)?! Ahahahaha!
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Old 02-22-2022, 06:53 PM
 
5,286 posts, read 17,547,577 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 04kL4nD View Post




I've been to Jackson, WY several times and it's lovely, but it's isolated, too. You may not feel that way, but ask anyone who regularly travels across the country via plane for work (or leisure) and they know exactly what I'm talking about. Enjoy not feeling isolated, when in all practical terms you are. Hey, it's one of the perks of country/rural living. Why deny it?
I've been all across this country when l drove semi with my husband. Large cities, inner cities, small towns and rolling plains. I'm good with being isolated /not isolated. For a few reasons I no longer fly. I'll admit, its not for everyone!
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