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Could you imagine living anywhere in California with the tax man, regulation man and super majority thought police attempting to control your life 24-7? Many of these cities listed are full of homeless, gangs, drugs and in my opinion have low QOL outside of 'weather'.
We can talk about 10 other reasons why this list is 'iffy': regulations on small business, Marxist overtones permeating the schools and the teachers unions.
CA (Coastal OC and SD where I'm from) used to be paradise...now it's a giant high priced echo chamber.
Actually….. We live pretty well and happily here on the Central Coast. I grew up in #6 - Madison, WI.
You think California is controlling? Utah is taking hard seltzers OUT of grocery stores to only be sold in the State Liquor Store. Nanny state to the nth degree. Oh - and there are homeless EVERYWHERE…. Utah, Idaho, and other red states too. They do not lack for violence either.
"Free" to exploit the toiling masses with low wages and as few benefits as possible? "Free" to pollute the environment? "Free" to replace American workers with imported labor who are used to sweatshops?
. The thought police I refer too are politicians and their sheering supporters (this can be both sides).
I'm a free market capitalist and operate as much as possible outside the system.
There are many states that are multiple times more free the California with less regulation and more in line
with small government and power to the states.
To say otherwise is either ignorance or lies.
No one operates “outside the system” anymore.
“Free market capitalism” is complete nonsense, too. There’s nothing “free” about it. Or sane. None of it. Just more Libertarian mumbo-jumbo. “If everybody acted responsibly and morally all things would fall blissfully and wonderfully into order in the world.” Lol. Homo sapiens are not biologically nor psychologically structured to live in mass societies as we do. It’s frankly amazing we manage to cooperate and function as well as we do, poorly as we do.
The “thought police” are the data-miners and cyber-manipulators and money-changer class. They own us all by our own stupid acquiescence to our desires and weaknesses … and their dream-weaving.
California is full of intrusive, expensive regulation? Yes, it is. And full of ‘rewards’ as well for those who navigate for the promised lifestyles.
I’m very much a supporter of strong ‘small states rights’ governance. But our silly world has gone way past any such sanity. The whole world is owned by the large-scale manipulation class of minds.
. The crime, unwillingness to prosecute crimes, the paying of gang members not to commit crimes, the mass release of Prisoners (including violent offenders), the open borders (MS 13 included) proves out that California has moved from Liberalism (tolerable) to a far left radical organism that carries a veto proof super majority. This is not city based...its the entire state.
This is only crime and when you factor in Taxes, Regulations, Red Tape, Laws, Restrictions and radical school unions then the madness is only more clear.
My wife works for one of the large Software companies in the Valley (remotely with stock) so I know all about it. They don't come close to offsetting COL in nice neighborhoods with great schools. Subpar sure...but who wants to pay 1 million for a subpar home in a subpar neighborhood.
I have ocean views from my home office and am doing well financially, which is why I see the reality vs. the rose colored glass perspective. The echo chamber in California (politically) is counterproductive and oppressive which is why people like Musk, Rogan, Peter Theil, Oracle, HP, Toyota and others have left.
Musk, Rogan, Theil are your “heros”? Seriously? You talk about “thought police” oppressing people and then bring those guys as examples of persons we should value as influencers? Lol. They are prime examples of crass, classless, self-serving, self-absorbed, jerks … among the worst humanity has to offer our future (if we have much future left at all).
Crime? California doesn’t rank particularly high on crime comparatively. It’s quite average across the states.
Unwillingness to prosecute? Our prisons are overflowing with ‘residents’ to the point where federal law / judges decreed that we release and find alternatives to so much incarcerating sentences … thus the mass release of certain non-violent categories.
Open borders? Borders are 100% a federal function. States have no say over border control.
And, in spite of the “regulations”, “red tape”, “unions”, “taxes” … California leads the nation by FAR as the #1 economy, 5th strongest in the world. You like capitalism? You got it. Right here at home in good ole CA!
"Free" to exploit the toiling masses with low wages and as few benefits as possible? "Free" to pollute the environment? "Free" to replace American workers with imported labor who are used to sweatshops?
My, aren't you the patriot!
I dunno if it's that simple. In principle I don't have anything against minimum wage and support reasonable worker protections. However, putting on my devil's advocate hat for a minute: In economics, the point where supply and demand meet is called the Market Clearing Price (MCP). It's where equilibrium is reached, at or below what buyers value, and at or above the production costs of sellers. Locations with strong economies support at higher MCP. E.g. an affluent city can support higher prices, which can then support higher wages while also supporting profitable businesses. Whereas economically depressed cities don't have this luxury, and if minimum wage is higher than the local MCP for labor, businesses tend to shut down and/or relocate and unemployment skyrockets.
IMO, a good case can be made that many parts of inland California are feeling the effects of labor not reaching the MCP. Places like Calexico with an unemployment rate of 20% and higher pre-pandemic. If an employer cannot make profit at $13/hr min wage, they will either shut down, or move to a lower cost state or country. What's better: $0/hr or $7/hr? While $7/hr is ridiculous in many parts of CA, in a LCOL place like Calexico it's not bad (certainly better than $0). Ideally, CA would tailor minimum wage for different regions or counties to offset this, but that's not what happens. And many businesses are leaving for other states. It's not clear to me that this benefits the most vulnerable workers.
Let's talk about the environment for a minute. For all of California's bluster about being green, it really drops the ball in some important areas. Take, for example, urban planning. The failure to build adequate housing near jobs means people are commuting very long distances and emitting tons of GHG in the process. This is almost entirely a regulatory problem where developers are extremely limited on what and where they can build in cities. Pricing lower income workers out of the Bay Area to places like Tracy and Manteca, with long car commutes, is neither Green nor Pro-Worker. Whereas places with less regulation are more likely to build higher-density urban infill with very short commutes to job centers. This is an all around win for workers, the environment, and businesses.
On this very forum people often remark about how yes, California is losing population, but that's okay because it's mostly those with lower income. Assuming there's some truth to this, why would lower income workers be leaving the state if it's a workers' paradise?
TL;DR - CA needs to take the plank out of its own eye.
Last edited by AnythingOutdoors; 03-07-2022 at 09:46 AM..
Let's talk about the environment for a minute. For all of California's bluster about being green, it really drops the ball in some important areas. Take, for example, urban planning. The failure to building adequate housing near jobs means people are commuting very long distances and emitting tons of GHG in the process. This is almost entirely a regulatory problem where developers are extremely limited on what and where they can build in cities. Pricing lower income workers out of the Bay Area to places like Tracy and Manteca, with long car commutes, is neither Green nor Pro-Worker. Whereas places with less regulation are more likely to build higher-density urban infill with very short commutes to job centers. This is an all around win for workers, the environment, and businesses.
On this very forum people often remark about how yes, California is losing population, but that's okay because it's mostly those with lower income. Assuming there's some truth to this, why would lower income workers be leaving the state if it's a worker's paradise?
TL;DR - CA needs to take the plank out of its own eye.
Thanks for the entire explanation. I cut it to focus on the bolded issue.
A shortage of housing near jobs is a problem found throughout the US. It results from RE prices being much higher in most areas close to jobs, so workers find themselves having to locate farther and farther out. That might not be so bad, if there were adequate public transit, but there isn't. There don't have to be any regulatory issues involved, for RE to be too expensive near job centers for the average worker to afford.
And now we have REIT's compounding the affordability issue. While in some housing markets, they've over-built, so their buildings remain half empty (e.g. Seattle), cryptically, with so much oversupply, rents don't come down. In fact, the buildings owned by REIT's raise the rent by around $100/month annually. No one's wages increase by that amount annually, and even if they did, most people wouldn't want to turn the entire increase over to their landlord. There appears to be price-fixing going on, since the principle of supply-and-demand isn't functioning. So in that example (one among several), we see an abundance of available housing near job centers, that remains beyond the reach of the average worker.
In such cases, it appears that more regulation is needed, rather than less. Price-fixing is illegal, but no one has investigated and uncovered this.
"Free" to exploit the toiling masses with low wages and as few benefits as possible? "Free" to pollute the environment? "Free" to replace American workers with imported labor who are used to sweatshops?
My, aren't you the patriot!
Is that your version of the Trotsky meets Engels battle cry?
I never mentioned anything about replacing American Workers and as you can imagine I'm an American first person which includes labor/ H1B's and made in America first.
How about those open borders that the radical left loves and pushes?
It's the leftist big tech balloon along with woke companies like Nike that cheerlead the H1B programs, open borders and America last policy. Politicians that whored out US manufacturing for cheap labor (love those Clintons) and make China great policies.
Let me rephrase to help clarify: I'm an America First Free Market Capitalist and yes they can co-exist.
Musk, Rogan, Theil are your “heros”? Seriously? You talk about “thought police” oppressing people and then bring those guys as examples of persons we should value as influencers? Lol. They are prime examples of crass, classless, self-serving, self-absorbed, jerks … among the worst humanity has to offer our future (if we have much future left at all).
Crime? California doesn’t rank particularly high on crime comparatively. It’s quite average across the states.
Unwillingness to prosecute? Our prisons are overflowing with ‘residents’ to the point where federal law / judges decreed that we release and find alternatives to so much incarcerating sentences … thus the mass release of certain non-violent categories.
Open borders? Borders are 100% a federal function. States have no say over border control.
And, in spite of the “regulations”, “red tape”, “unions”, “taxes” … California leads the nation by FAR as the #1 economy, 5th strongest in the world. You like capitalism? You got it. Right here at home in good ole CA!
I think all of the people I mentioned are great minds that understand the value of hard work, free thinking and a willingness to call the radical left out for what they are. Peter Theil in particular is as smart and free thinking as they come.
Crime? The fact that you paint crime as 'ho hum' in California shows you are deep in the group think echo chamber. Gang capital of the US....Been to Oakland, Richmond, Stockton, South LA, Huntington Park or East SD lately? Surenos reign supreme.
Mass release of violent criminals in California- don't try to pretend they were all jaywalkers. Look it up and you will find that information. That's great for the kids and families in general!
Yes, let's value people like Soros backed DA's: Boudin in SF and Gascon in LA are not prosecuting criminals end masse...but all those smash and grabs and break ins in SF and LA are ok because they are good kids!
Do states have the right to defend their borders?
“When the federal government fails to fulfill this constitutional duty, Article 1 Section 10 expressly guarantees states the sovereign power to repel an invasion and defend their citizenry from overwhelming and “imminent danger.”
The current guy in the white house seems to think that is MS 13 the cartels and criminals cross into the US is no big deal.
California's status as the 5th largest economy is a function of what capitalism created- you have that right!
It's also a function of Big tech and the Valley, but times are shifting.
Smart money is leaving the state where freedom and COL are more reasonable.
VC funding in places like Austin, SLC, Miami and others are slowly taking away market share and when tech companies expand they are generally doing it out of state. hmmmm.......Seen Meta's move towards Texas? Tesla? Oracle? How about Adobe's expansion into SLC or Intuit moving more resources to Dallas?
Last edited by AboveTheIce; 03-07-2022 at 04:40 PM..
Actually….. We live pretty well and happily here on the Central Coast. I grew up in #6 - Madison, WI.
You think California is controlling? Utah is taking hard seltzers OUT of grocery stores to only be sold in the State Liquor Store. Nanny state to the nth degree. Oh - and there are homeless EVERYWHERE…. Utah, Idaho, and other red states too. They do not lack for violence either.
You are misinformed.
The CATO institute tracks state freedom based on on 20 metrics that are detailed and backed by quantifiable data.
Utah Ranks 20th (and yes there are homeless there....but they are still towards the bottom of this list). This control on booz you speak of is a function of Mormonism, but it ranks very high in personal and economic freedom.
Idaho Ranks 10th and I spend a lot of time in Idaho, there is not much homeless there. You are lying
Idaho is also the 5th safest state and has one of the lowest percent of homeless.
California Ranks 48th and performs particularly bad in fiscal, regulatory, Personal and Economic Freedom.
It does perform well in Marriage and Drug usage freedom (surprise surprise).
I think all of the people I mentioned are great minds that understand the value of hard work, free thinking and a willingness to call the radical left out for what they are. Peter Theil in particular is as smart and free thinking as they come.
“Value of *hard work*”??? Lol
Sitting around in meetings, crunching numbers on computers, talking endlessly on the phone making *deals* with other peoples’ money, and similar isn’t *hard work*. It’s mental masturbation.
Digging ditches and laying sewer pipe is hard work. Changing tires all day at a rubber shop is hard work. Cleaning the soiled bottoms of elderly as they slowly pass their final days is hard work. Stacking lumber on a job site is hard work. Re-asphalting highways in the summer sun is hard work. Roofing houses is hard work. … I can list a practically endless accounting of labors that are hard work. None involve the complete horsepucky that Musk and Theil and Rogan do.
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