Is education not as high a priority in CA as it is in the Northeast (San Francisco: estate)

[sav858]

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Now it could be that some additional funding would help. But even then how much will actually make it to the students vs the bureaucrats? If a system is broken all aspects must be examined including the 'mismanagement' of funds which already exist. So while I don't rule out funding as a contributing factor I certainly don't think it is always the answer. Sometimes before anything really changes the 'overseers' of the system need to change as well as the 'approach' which is taken.

Agreed, there is little to no point in throwing more money at a broken and mismanaged system but unfortunately our system seems to always remain mismanaged and broken partly b/c of the reasons below:

Originally Posted by MtnSurfer

Unfortunately for the vast majority of people it ends up being an all or nothing approach. Either tax and spent with very little accountability or Hell no, no more taxes!

When the real answers to the hard questions are more complex than people are willing to admit or bother to work on and possibly sometimes more in the middle of all that political posturing.

And knee jerk reactions just can't solve these complex socioeconomic issues. Instead the pendulum will just swing back and forth and nothing of any real significance will get accomplished.

CA has some serious fundamental problems that it seems to keep approaching with band aid solutions.

[sav858]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

The concern I have is that in my city, San Diego, the residents voted down a fire protection tax AFTER wildfires destroyed the city. In fact residents of San Diego basically refuse to accept a tax of any type. So they are saying, we don't care, we won't pay taxes, even though we are unprepared for wildfires, underfunded and understaffed police, and failing schools (25% dropout rate)

How can education, or any public service be a priority with an attitude like that?

America's "Finest City" = America's Cheapest City.

I appreciate the fiscal restraint SD shows sometimes but it's a little ridiculous at points. I often compare it to the Bay Area, which is at the opposite end of this spectrum. Voters and politicians there never seem to find a tax they don't like. I constantly see them keep jacking up bridge tolls, taxes, etc.. yet the quality of life isn't any better overall. The roads are just as crappy up there. The freeways are worse but the public transit is better but overall the quality of life is not any better despite $4 dollar bridge tolls (soon to be $6 on the GG Bridge) and a myriad of taxes and fees. Some planners up there were even proposing a $.10 per gallon tax on gasoline to fight "climate change" and improve transportation and a poll showed the majority of people supported it. I've just seen so many promises from these tax or fee hikes that never deliver.

BUT on the opposite end is San Diego, a city so cheap we still refuse to pay for own trash pickup. People here expect a free lunch all the time. And I can't believe how anti-tax people are; voters opposing raising the hotel tax even though tourists and visitors are the one's paying it, not residents. Some people constantly complain about tourists and them using roads and services but still refuse to tax them for it. And it just bewilders me how opposed people remain to funding a county wide fire service after 2003 and 2007! Complain about this, complain about and then complain about any attempt to increase revenue to fix those problems they complain about. The anti-tax mentality can be truly amazing here.

I would prefer to see some middle ground to what the Bay Area does and what SD doesn't do.

[Sassberto]

Originally Posted by sav858

I would prefer to see some middle ground to what the Bay Area does and what SD doesn't do.

True dat!

[Zapparulez]

I'm not going to give you an in detail reasoning. Basically, we in California believe in propping up government wherever it may be. Our Bureaucratic employees must make 2.5 times more on average than a regular teacher and outnumber the teacher by 10 to 1. Therefore, all moneies taken from the taxpayer can be justified and if any budgets are cut, then it is the children who suffer. Californians are being held hostage by the fake ass teachers union. We spend more per child than almost every state in the Union, yet we rank near the bottom in almost every category. This problem has to do with the way most Californians believe government should be run(meaning without oversight and with impunity, since government always has our interests at heart, barf).

My mom and my youngest brothers live in Maine and when my now 12 yr old brother moved to Maine after 1st grade, he still couldn't write his own name. I taught him how to count past 100 the last week he lived here. My mom was on drugs and has since cleaned up her act(part of the reason why she moved to Maine). I had just moved to Sacramento from San Diego and was appalled that my little brother was so uneducated at such a young age. The problem is two fold really...the school system sucks because there is no oversight and money is just thrown at the problem so the problems get bigger and bigger and harder to hide, but the other side of the coin is bad parenting. My little brother was undereducated because my mom was a lowlife. My own daughter goes to school and is very smart and ahead of the curve because my wife and I are studying with her everyday after school and we read to her until she started reading, so now she reads to us each night.

Basically, if you are involved as a parent on a daily basis in nurturing your childs educational development then they will not only succeed in learning, but they will thrive. I am still agitated with the way things are done in California, but I just have to keep voting against all the idiots who keep trying to throw money at the problem. People don't realize that the school system can only "punish our kids" for so long before the people demand action. THAT is when oversight will finally be implemented again in our school system....but people like me are fighting a multi-billion dollar organization bent on securing their yearly funds, not educating children.

Just remember, in California, if Barbara Kerr(or whatever her name is) supports a proposition, vote against it. If she is blasting a proposition as harmful to our children, then vote for it. Time to bring these lying bastards back to Earth...they don't own us...we own them!

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by sav858

America's "Finest City" = America's Cheapest City.

I appreciate the fiscal restraint SD shows sometimes but it's a little ridiculous at points. I often compare it to the Bay Area, which is at the opposite end of this spectrum. Voters and politicians there never seem to find a tax they don't like. I constantly see them keep jacking up bridge tolls, taxes, etc.. yet the quality of life isn't any better overall. The roads are just as crappy up there. The freeways are worse but the public transit is better but overall the quality of life is not any better despite $4 dollar bridge tolls (soon to be $6 on the GG Bridge) and a myriad of taxes and fees. Some planners up there were even proposing a $.10 per gallon tax on gasoline to fight "climate change" and improve transportation and a poll showed the majority of people supported it. I've just seen so many promises from these tax or fee hikes that never deliver.

BUT on the opposite end is San Diego, a city so cheap we still refuse to pay for own trash pickup. People here expect a free lunch all the time. And I can't believe how anti-tax people are; voters opposing raising the hotel tax even though tourists and visitors are the one's paying it, not residents. Some people constantly complain about tourists and them using roads and services but still refuse to tax them for it. And it just bewilders me how opposed people remain to funding a county wide fire service after 2003 and 2007! Complain about this, complain about and then complain about any attempt to increase revenue to fix those problems they complain about. The anti-tax mentality can be truly amazing here.

I would prefer to see some middle ground to what the Bay Area does and what SD doesn't do.

That is the basic premise that conservatives have. The city has a budget, they need to learn to spend wisely. Look at San Francisco....being a "sanctuary city" costs millions upon millions upon millions every year. And those idiots living there WILLINGLY pay more taxes to support illegals who live in our country?!? Why not pay millions upon millions upon millions for your own citizens? I've been around the foster care system in this state and there are millions of kids that could use some help. Do you realize how many kids are just dropped off the system at 18 with little education and no where to turn?? But no, helping people who break the law to get in this country is more important than helping our own people. I applaud San Diegans for taking a stand against useless tax hikes. Fire happen...if they had approved the extra tax then they would have paid billions maybe even trillions to the city and county before another 500 year fire like that happens again. Use common sense. Fires happened...the entire state and federal system came together to help end this catastrophy. How would extra tax money stop those fires from happening again? Don't say controlled burns, because that's a load of crap. It's impossible to control burn millions of acres of dry and dead foilage. In any case, your arguement and mine are the two sides of the two coins in our society. One side is liberal(typically young ideologes) that believe in big government to the rescue of everything and high taxes so no one will ever be held accountable for anything...while the other side is Conservative(usually older and more of a realist) that believe the government needs to get their big fat freakin' nose out of peoples business and pocketbooks. Leave us to our own and we'll be just fine. We'll pay for fire, police, infrastructure, and other basic services...

You'll be able to tell which cities are conservative minded and which are liberal minded...the liberal ones will be less inclinded to cut budgets and more likely to raise taxes. The conservative cities will be cutting budgets drastically to keep from raising taxes. That was fun.

And yes, our education system still sucks...for the same reasons outlined above too.

[Sassberto]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Fire happen...if they had approved the extra tax then they would have paid billions maybe even trillions to the city and county before another 500 year fire like that happens again. Use common sense. Fires happened...the entire state and federal system came together to help end this catastrophy. How would extra tax money stop those fires from happening again?

There were 2 major fires within 4 years of each other. 2003 and 2007. Not 500 years. After 2003 we decided not to improve our fire systems. The 2007 fires were much more devastating. So, we screwed up. This time around, my guess is we are going pass the tax.

No on is saying that extra tax dollars could prevent a fire from happening. But maybe we could use that money for buying fire trucks? Fire helicopters? More pumps? Brush control around populated areas? The federal government doesn't just keep em parked around here, it took days to get them from... ahem... Canada last time.

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Leave us to our own and we'll be just fine. We'll pay for fire, police, infrastructure, and other basic services...

But San Diego has a police department with retention crisis because there are not enough officers and their pay is too low. Our streets and sewers are crumbling. So who exactly is paying for these services? The residents of Rancho Bernardo didn't pay to clear the brush in public open space and their houses burned, so who pays? It's gotta be someone, the county or the city or the state? And if a conservative-run city is the ticket to greatness... why do San Diego's schools have a 25% dropout rate?

Your statements have a lot of passion.. but are a tad bit incoherent

[sav858]

Government is inherently inefficient and wasteful pretty much no matter where you go BUT some are worse than others. CA has a problem with a lack of oversight and I recently saw some article about an official report stating that is a big problem with CA's government. So I can agree that money is wasted more so in CA than some other states, that is something we need to fix and address. So I can understand why people don't want to raise taxes, as someone already said, it's pointless to throw money at a broken system. But please don't try to generalize 36 million Californian's as being content with wasteful govt spending b/c that is anything but the case, maybe in some parts of the state (i.e. Bay Area) it's more like that but not most places, especially not SD.

But that doesn't mean we should just stick with the status quo and never support another tax increase and be cheap skates who expect a free lunch. Support good tax increases with strong oversight to make sure what is suppose to get done actually gets done, too many times, especially on the state level, that does not happen. Not all tax increases are wasted; I think SANDAG has done a fairly decent job distributing Transnet (1/2 cent sales tax) and getting transportation projects done. Then contrast this to a 1/2 cent sales tax for transportation very similar to SD's that was passed in Miami over a decade ago that has not delivered most of it's promises. So some public agencies can get it done with others can't.

Honestly I think if San Diegan's loosened up those wallets a little, supported some tax increases we'd might actually have decent roads and water mains not breaking every other day. Recently the mayor asked the head of the Southeast Economic Development Corporation to quit after wasteful spending and large salaries were exposed. I think SD does a better job than other regions at keeping their leaders in check and for stopping waste. especially when it's discovered. But people here just aren't willing to give our politicians more money despite our decent track record. City council members are too damn scared to ask us to pay for our own trash pickup, which every other large city CA does. Like I said, I wish San Diego had the fiscal restraint that it does but with more support for public funding to improve infrastructure, education, etc...

I can see why people oppose tax increases and don't want to give the govt more money, but people need to demand better results instead of just being cheap and saying no all the time. Other places can seem to manage and find that balance better than CA can so it's obviously possible.

You you're trying to generalize and group people as liberals or conservatives but you can't. I don't consider myself either and many people are moderate but b/c there are only two sides/political parties, most people choose one or the other. But that doesn't mean they are as extreme in their views as the general ideology is.

I know all this sounded kind of idealistic but it's really not and other states manage to do a much better job than CA at their budget and spending.


Also those are not 500 year fires when they happen four years apart. CA is already on record for having the worst wildfire season in recorded history and the fires haven't even begun to scorch Southern CA. September and October and even November when the Santa Ana winds arrive, that's when our fun begins. Other parts of CA have county wide fires departments but not the county that has had the worst wildfires in the past 5 years and is one of the most prone areas in CA??? It seriously amazes me how we can't seem to learn or something.

[Huckleberry3911948]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

Agreed there. Best higher education system in the country bar none. But primary and secondary, not so much.

i am not sure i am in agreement with high quality of education in california. since in a welfare case load the mean reading and math level is 6th grade (typical finished 10th or has hi school diploma on file). i think the teaching ability level is really good. but the learning invironment is not. its not the teachers

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by Sassberto

There were 2 major fires within 4 years of each other. 2003 and 2007. Not 500 years. After 2003 we decided not to improve our fire systems. The 2007 fires were much more devastating. So, we screwed up. This time around, my guess is we are going pass the tax.

No on is saying that extra tax dollars could prevent a fire from happening. But maybe we could use that money for buying fire trucks? Fire helicopters? More pumps? Brush control around populated areas? The federal government doesn't just keep em parked around here, it took days to get them from... ahem... Canada last time.



But San Diego has a police department with retention crisis because there are not enough officers and their pay is too low. Our streets and sewers are crumbling. So who exactly is paying for these services? The residents of Rancho Bernardo didn't pay to clear the brush in public open space and their houses burned, so who pays? It's gotta be someone, the county or the city or the state? And if a conservative-run city is the ticket to greatness... why do San Diego's schools have a 25% dropout rate?

Your statements have a lot of passion.. but are a tad bit incoherent

It was end of the day. San Diego is in a unique situation. Their City Council is absurd. San Diego is having problems because your leaders don't understand fiscal standards. They almost went bankrupt and they can't even afford to keep their city clean. That is sad when you have a major convention and vacation city with tons of outside money coming in and they can't even manage it correctly.

My advice is to vote everyone one and start over. Most of my family lives there and the fire in 2003 was a fart in the wind compared to last year. Adn you proved my point, the tax increased in 2003 did nothing to help with 2007...so why should San Diegans be asked to spend even more money if its just going to disappear into a black hole. btw, didn't San Diego ban "controlled burns" back in 2002? So the county had like 5 years of overgrowth last year when the entire county burned? Controlled burns do not prevent fires, but they help limit the severity of them. You people prefer air quality over fire prevention, so deal with it.

Sorry for my disjointed post above...

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by Huckleberry3911948

i am not sure i am in agreement with high quality of education in california. since in a welfare case load the mean reading and math level is 6th grade (typical finished 10th or has hi school diploma on file). i think the teaching ability level is really good. but the learning invironment is not. its not the teachers

The only gaurantee is to do your homework and locate a school that has a good crop of teachers. The best way to do this is word of mouth. Test scores mean nothing since they are largely manipulated. Remember, California has no accountability for anything when it comes to our schools. So it is imperative to find the right school in the area. I drive my daughter to a school that is far out of my way because they have several great teachers. She had the same teach in K and 1st and now she will have the same teacher for 2nd and 3rd as well. I like that continuity, and this year she will get to mentor 2nd graders since she was mentored by 3rd graders last year. They tried to get us to let her to skip a grade, but my wife wouldn't allow it. The point is, California schools suck in general, but there a few gems and many great teachers...you just gotta find them.