San Luis Obispo - suburban or urban? (Fresno, Santa Barbara: Home Depot, movie theaters)

[the city]

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

I don't agree that the type of retail store should be part of the defiinition. But if you want to use it then you have classification problems.

For Example:

**(suburbs or suburban communities in which have costcos in area): a lot of these do NOT have Costco.

**Rural Fringe - Victorville, Eureka, Visalia, and Chico all have Costcos.

okay, i changed it. now, how does it look?

also, for what i consider urban....

-city must be economic hub (be a charter city or be able to sustain a region to economic sufficient on it's own)
-must have at least 50,000 population (or be close to 50,000 population with some special aspect such as illegal residents, college students in area, lots of families or retirees in rural area, or high income area)
ex: El Centro and San Luis Obispo are mini-urban cities with lots of residents in rural land. SLO has college students that aren't in the census, and el centro has illegal living residents not in the census.
-must have at least 150,000 population within 20 miles of city (and possibley with an exception of being a little less under that and being a high income area)
-must have at least average population density from 2,500 ppl per square mile to 18,000 ppl per square mile.

[FresnoFacts]

Now you need to rethink a few other things about classifications.

Visalia has a population of 127,000. Its southern border is only about 3 miles from Tulare's northern border. Tulare has 57,000 people. Are they both rural fringe, is Visalia an urban area with Tulare a suburb, are they an urban cluster, etc. Remember you say Santa Maria is urban but it only has 91,000 people and SLO only 45,000.

You left off Salinas which has 150,000 people and is much larger than Monterey.

I'm sure there are other things to ponder but I don't have the time to consider them all.

[the city]

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

Now you need to rethink a few other things about classifications.

Visalia has a population of 127,000. Its southern border is only about 3 miles from Tulare's northern border. Tulare has 57,000 people. Are they both rural fringe, is Visalia an urban area with Tulare a suburb, are they an urban cluster, etc. Remember you say Santa Maria is urban but it only has 91,000 people and SLO only 45,000.

You left off Salinas which has 150,000 people and is much larger than Monterey.

I'm sure there are other things to ponder but I don't have the time to consider them all.

There is over 150,000 population within 20minutes of Santa Maria-10,000 (los alamos and guadalupe), 35,000 (orcutt), and 17,000 from nipomo. and then santa maria has 91,000 population.

I accidently left out Salinas.

San Luis Obispo has currently less than 150,000 population but has is a high income area. and in 2025 the area is expected to have 150,000 population within 20 minutes of SLO. let's not forget atascadero to arroyo grande would be SLO's surrounding population.

On mapquest and yahoo driving directions, and from my dad just being in the area. It says that Visalia is 30 minutes to Tulare. 25 minutes at the minimum. And Tulare only has 56,000 population and visalia has 121,000 population. and they both have low population density (below 2,500 ppl per square mile and no macy's in the area). but the main thing is. each city is too far to be close together. i would say they are big rural cities that are scattered around the county.

Macy's formula to be built somewhere reguires there be 150,000 population within 20 minutes of the city they go to or that the area has high income, lots of tourists, and is lots of traffic in the location. And not to mention Visalia just got their costo in 2007, so I strongly consider Visalia, Porterville, Dinuba, and Tulare rural since they are so spread out from one another.

and not to mention even if you do consider tulare and visalia being close together the 30 minute population is way lower than SLO's since SLO's 30 minute population includes santa maria.

[FresnoFacts]

Originally Posted by the city

On mapquest and yahoo driving directions, and from my dad just being in the area. It says that Visalia is 30 minutes to Tulare. 25 minutes at the minimum. And Tulare only has 56,000 population and visalia has 121,000 population. and they both have low population density (below 2,500 ppl per square mile and no macy's in the area). but the main thing is. each city is too far to be close together. i would say they are big rural cities that are scattered around the county.

Macy's formula to be built somewhere reguires there be 150,000 population within 20 minutes of the city they go to or that the area has high income, lots of tourists, and is lots of traffic in the location. And not to mention Visalia just got their costo in 2007, so I strongly consider Visalia, Porterville, Dinuba, and Tulare rural since they are so spread out from one another.

You need to check again about Visalia and Tulare, they are not 30 minutes apart. Mapquest is either using Highway 99 or allowing for time from downtown to downtown or calculating the traffic jams on Mooney Blvd between the two cities.

If you follow Highway 63 (Mooney Blvd.) Visalia's urban development ends at about Liberty Avenue and Tulare's urban development starts at about Cartmill, roughly a 3 to 4 mile distance. Use the satellite view on Google maps to see what I mean.

The 2 cities are so close they are concerned about merging in to a single urban development and are working to maintain a greenbelt between them.

Visalia originally got a Costco in 1990. In 2007 Costco opened a larger replacement store in Visalia because there was too much business for the original store. The new store is 160,000-square-feet, at the time of its opening in 2007 it was the largest Costco in California.

[the city]

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

You need to check again about Visalia and Tulare, they are not 30 minutes apart. Mapquest is either using Highway 99 or allowing for time from downtown to downtown or calculating the traffic jams on Mooney Blvd between the two cities.

If you follow Highway 63 (Mooney Blvd.) Visalia's urban development ends at about Liberty Avenue and Tulare's urban development starts at about Cartmill, roughly a 3 to 4 mile distance. Use the satellite view on Google maps to see what I mean.

The 2 cities are so close they are concerned about merging in to a single urban development and are working to maintain a greenbelt between them.

Visalia originally got a Costco in 1990. In 2007 Costco opened a larger replacement store in Visalia because there was too much business for the original store. The new store is 160,000-square-feet, at the time of its opening in 2007 it was the largest Costco in California.

Well, yeah it's 20 minutes on map quest but I see it's 10 miles apart downtown to downtown. and i was thinking it was 20 minutes with traffic from visalia to tulare. so they do seem close together.

I would not consider Visalia-Tulare area urban because of their low population densitys, but if you want to say their suburban of Fresno then I can agree to that.

[FresnoFacts]

Well lets now talk about population density. I don't know where you are getting your number but right here at city-data.com it says:
Visalia = 3830 people per square mile
http://www.city-data.com/city/Visalia-California.html
Tulare = 3021 people per square mile
http://www.city-data.com/city/Tulare-California.html

[the city]

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

Well lets now talk about population density. I don't know where you are getting your number but right here at city-data.com it says:
Visalia = 3830 people per square mile
http://www.city-data.com/city/Visalia-California.html
Tulare = 3021 people per square mile
http://www.city-data.com/city/Tulare-California.html

This is true, they do have average urban population densitys. Most suburbs do. In fact, Grover Beach and Oceano have higher population densities than San Luis Obispo.

Visalia, Tulare, Porterville, Hanford, and Dinuba don't have any real suburbs. Because they are suburbs. The cities after those 5 suburban communities are all rural.

San Luis Obispo has Avila Beach, Grover Beach, Oceano, Arroyo Grande, and Pismo Beach for suburbs. And then it has Atascadero and Nipomo as rural fringe. Then there is the 6,200 students who live at the college dorms, and then the 5,000 residents of the rural outskirts of San Luis Obispo.

My 5 basic rules to being urban are:
1)Being an economic hub, and being self sufficient cities (usually having suburbs or commuter towns nearby) In most cases, urban cities have Macy's and Costco within 20 minutes. SLO is in the process of getting their Macy's, so the citizens their dont have to drive to Santa Maria's Macy's.

2)50,000 population within the city minimum in most cases (except El Centro and San Luis Obispo are at 45,000 population but SLO has college students and retirees in rural areas, and El Centro has retirees in rural areas and illegal living residents that push both up to 50,000 population. not to mention they are high income cities)

3)2,500 population density (usually indicating their is a very urbanized area, and very tall buildings)

4)150,000 population within 20 minutes of the city

5)250,000 population within 30 minutes of the city

[FresnoFacts]

But you list Visalia as rural fringe not suburb and SLO as urban.

So lets walk through your 5.

1) Economic self-sufficient involves jobs. All of Tulare County sends out 15,000 out of 115,000 workers to other counties. It gets back 11,000 workers. So a near economic wash for the labor force, its not relying on other areas to supply jobs for residents.
http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/commut...larcommute.pdf

Additionally Visalia is the county seat and largest commercial center between Fresno and Bakersfield. It pulls workers from other cities which would then count as its suburbs.

2) Over 50,000? Visalia meets that. High income? Some 2005 median household incomes:
Santa Maria - $45,200
Visalia - $45,023
San Luis Obispo - $37,400
El Centro - $37,000

3) 2,500/mile population density, Visalia meets that too.

4) 150,000 people within 20 minutes? Check.

5) 30 minutes from Visalia takes in over 250,000 people.
Visalia - 121,000
Tulare - 56,000
Exeter - 10,000
Dinuba - 21,000
Farmersville - 10,000
Kingsburg - 11,000
Hanford - 52,000
Then there are unincorporated communities like Ivanhoe, Goshen, Cutler, Orosi, etc. That all probably totals over 250,000 within 30 minutes.

If SLO and Santa Maria meets your urban definition it looks like Visalia does too.

[the city]

rural fringe:
victorville
eureka
susanville
gardenville
san benito
ukiah
clearlake
red bluff
cedar ridge
crescent city
bishop
lompoc
paso robles
mammoth lakes
yucca valley
king city
napa
south lake tahoe
barstow
nevada city
Ione
Orland
Colusa
Fort Bragg
Weed
Yreka
Chico
Truckee
San Andreas
Ridgecrest
Corocan
Gonzales
Placerville
Hayfork
Madeline
Alturas
Davis Creek
Canby
Redway
Westport
Lone Pine

Suburbs:
Temecula
Roseville
Irvine
Ontario
Oakland
Davis
El Dorado Hills
Yuba City
Lancaster
Palmdale
Northridge
Santa Monica
Pomona
Ventura
Santa Clara
San Mateo
Newport Beach
Mission Viejo
Anaheim
Huntington Beach
Merced
Thousand Oaks
Monterey
Hayward
Madera
Santa Clarita
Moreno Valley
Tulare
Hanford
Visalia
Dinuba
Porterville
Orange

Urban (most have Macy's and Costcos nearby):
Los Angeles
San Francisco
San Diego
San Jose
Fresno
Long Beach
Sacramento
Santa Ana (OC area)
Bakersfield
Stockton
Modesto
San Bernadino
Oxnard
Salinas
Vallejo
Redding
Santa Maria
Santa Barbara
San Rafael
Santa Cruz
San Luis Obispo
El Centro

[the city]

Originally Posted by FresnoFacts

But you list Visalia as rural fringe not suburb and SLO as urban.

So lets walk through your 5.

1) Economic self-sufficient involves jobs. All of Tulare County sends out 15,000 out of 115,000 workers to other counties. It gets back 11,000 workers. So a near economic wash for the labor force, its not relying on other areas to supply jobs for residents.
http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/commut...larcommute.pdf

Additionally Visalia is the county seat and largest commercial center between Fresno and Bakersfield. It pulls workers from other cities which would then count as its suburbs.

2) Over 50,000? Visalia meets that. High income? Some 2005 median household incomes:
Santa Maria - $45,200
Visalia - $45,023
San Luis Obispo - $37,400
El Centro - $37,000

3) 2,500/mile population density, Visalia meets that too.

4) 150,000 people within 20 minutes? Check.

5) 30 minutes from Visalia takes in over 250,000 people.
Visalia - 121,000
Tulare - 56,000
Exeter - 10,000
Dinuba - 21,000
Farmersville - 10,000
Kingsburg - 11,000
Hanford - 52,000
Then there are unincorporated communities like Ivanhoe, Goshen, Cutler, Orosi, etc. That all probably totals over 250,000 within 30 minutes.

If SLO and Santa Maria meets your urban definition it looks like Visalia does too.

True, it meets alot of these fine. but the number one makes me think. Visalia doesn't really have any suburbs like SLO has Arroyo Grande, Grover Beach, Avila Beach, Pismo Beach, and Oceano. which all have high population density and are commuter towns to SLO. Not to mention SLO has morro bay and los osos nearby and also atascadero.

I think Visalia, Tulare, Porterville, and Hanford are suburbs of Fresno because fresno has the big airport, alot of the big stores and macy's, the state college, the big companies that settled in visalia, and fresno has the entertainment for those smaller cities. it's possible visalia has a strong workforce, so that many dont commute to work in fresno. but im still betting there is a good amount that do commute there.

basically, i live in templeton and my parents do a majority of shopping and business in SLO. the airport is there, court house, costco, entertainment, college, and tourism.

also on the commuting list. i saw roughly 5,000 ppl from fresno county commuting to tulare county. and then saw 6,000 commuting from tulare county to fresno county.

http://www.calmis.ca.gov/file/commut...esncommute.pdf

kings county, madera county, and tulare county have more ppl commuting to fresno. ppl from fresno are commuting to those suburbs for work, but the majority are commuting to fresno.