Nov 4 State Propositions! (attorney, school, camps)

[timelesschild]

OK, why is it OK for you all to be all bigoted towards Christians and/or Southerners? Why is this not considered hate speech or personal attacks? There's a really icky feeling of intolerance on this thread, and it's coming from the left.... I'm just saying...

[sav858]

Originally Posted by timelesschild

OK, why is it OK for you all to be all bigoted towards Christians and/or Southerners? Why is this not considered hate speech or personal attacks? There's a really icky feeling of intolerance on this thread, and it's coming from the left.... I'm just saying...

you all? Show me one post where I mention Christians or Southerners. Actually show me one post by anyone except Happ that talks negatively on Christians and Southerners, and even then he wasn't generalizing about all Christians, just radical ones. And even the "southern" remark seemed more like a joke based off stereotypes than anything else. I think you're being too sensitive and want to believe there is a bunch on intolerance towards Christians and Southerners on this thread to justify your opposing view, but there isn't. That whole "your intolerant too" argument doesn't make the opposing side any less predjudice or intolerant.

[happ]

Sorry for my lack of tact it only drives some into defensive statements. As a Christian, I react to a minority group of outspoken evangelical Christians who most assuredly do not speak for the whole Church. Those who focus on damnation & sin through the mindset of fearing an angry God. I also reject pastors who do not have a seminary education or any college degree. Lay preachers who cite whatever scripture they can find convenient to support intolerance of others. The Baptist church is very strong in the South [that's the connection].

Also as a citizen, I do not want the Church involved in any secular business. That's why so many Catholic Democrats listen to the bishops & do the business of the people entirely separate from the church as is necessary in a democracy.

[SOON2BNSURPRISE]

Originally Posted by caldje

Simple question here.

As a gay man, why would I lie to you when I say that I have never been given the opportunity to choose my sexuality?

Did you make a choice on your sexuality?

There is no 'belief' involved in this issue. It is logical to conclude that sexuality is not a choice. If you want to say its not BIOLOGICAL.. ok, maybe you can argue a few things (but still be wrong). BUT, its a FACT that its not a choice.

Sincerely,

P.S. You missed the last sentences of my previous post. Your religous preocupation seems almost pathologic.

Sorry about the preocupation with religion. At the same time this is a very religous subject. It has to do with a persons beliefe in God. If you do believe in God and the scriptures then you would say that marriage is for a man and a woman. If you do not believe in God then mariage is strictly a secular function for the benefit of the financial well being of the partnership. Really that is all a person needs to determine here.

As far as sexuality being a choice, the same answer goes. If there is a God and he commanded his children to marry someone of the opposite sex then the feelings that you have are base temptations. Every one is tempted. That is part of the game. It is in overcoming the tempatation that is the key. I am tempted by every cute little thing that walks by. Love the shape of a woman. Love to have them near me. I see a girl that I am attracted to and all I have to say is watch out. At the same time I love my wife and restrain those feelings that I have for the opposite sex. I don't see a difference between the two. It is in how we as people handle ourselves.

I can say it time and time again, this is not about the right to marry someone of the same sex. This proposition goes deeper than that. It is part of a goal to do away with the traditional family unit.

[SOON2BNSURPRISE]

Originally Posted by happ

Sorry for my lack of tact it only drives some into defensive statements. As a Christian, I react to a minority group of outspoken evangelical Christians who most assuredly do not speak for the whole Church. Those who focus on damnation & sin through the mindset of fearing an angry God. I also reject pastors who do not have a seminary education or any college degree. Lay preachers who cite whatever scripture they can find convenient to support intolerance of others. The Baptist church is very strong in the South [that's the connection].

Also as a citizen, I do not want the Church involved in any secular business. That's why so many Catholic Democrats listen to the bishops & do the business of the people entirely separate from the church as is necessary in a democracy.

What about getting the government out of the Church's business? Why don't we leave marriage to the church?

[timelesschild]

Originally Posted by happ

Sorry for my lack of tact it only drives some into defensive statements. As a Christian, I react to a minority group of outspoken evangelical Christians who most assuredly do not speak for the whole Church. Those who focus on damnation & sin through the mindset of fearing an angry God. I also reject pastors who do not have a seminary education or any college degree. Lay preachers who cite whatever scripture they can find convenient to support intolerance of others. The Baptist church is very strong in the South [that's the connection].

Also as a citizen, I do not want the Church involved in any secular business. That's why so many Catholic Democrats listen to the bishops & do the business of the people entirely separate from the church as is necessary in a democracy.

OK, I see. I have seen you make derogatory statements before sort of sweeping the south into the bible belt into (whatever)... so it is interesting to hear where you are coming from. So I defend the land I come from. I just don't see that as wrong. I don't think it is nice to make derogatory statements, so I called it. If you catch me making derogatory statements about regions, religions or lifestyles, you can call me on that too.

I am not crazy about the Baptist church either, FWIW, and am all about keeping the government out of my business (and by implication, yours too). I don't think this makes me intolerant. I like this board, though, and like it best when people are nice to each other - which might be too much to ask in a political thread - which might be why SandyCo keeps 'em out of here....

Peace.

[timelesschild]

Originally Posted by sav858

you all? Show me one post where I mention Christians or Southerners. Actually show me one post by anyone except Happ that talks negatively on Christians and Southerners, and even then he wasn't generalizing about all Christians, just radical ones. And even the "southern" remark seemed more like a joke based off stereotypes than anything else. I think you're being too sensitive and want to believe there is a bunch on intolerance towards Christians and Southerners on this thread to justify your opposing view, but there isn't. That whole "your intolerant too" argument doesn't make the opposing side any less predjudice or intolerant.

Actually you do not know me at all. I am about as tolerant a person as there is. I do not think it is OK, though, to demean others' viewpoints. It is true that happ was taking it further than you were, and s/he answered much more nicely than you did. I'm all about civil discourse here, which is apparently too much to ask for in a political thread in these times.

[Hobgoblin]

Originally Posted by SOON2BNSURPRISE

If you do believe in God and the scriptures then you would say that marriage is for a man and a woman. If you do not believe in God then mariage is strictly a secular function for the benefit of the financial well being of the partnership.

So, because I don't believe in god then my (heterosexual) marriage is only a secular financial arrangement? My husband will be disappointed to learn this.

If marriage were truly only a religious rite, then sure no gay marriage, that's what your church says. And heck, your church doesn't have to marry gay couples.

However, marriage in our society is not a religious rite, it is a legal one. It has legal implications beyond tax breaks and health insurance.

Didn't they use all these same arguments against legalizing interracial marriages in decades past? I believe "against god's will" was the main argument of those opposed back then too.

Seriously, if you're arguments are the same as white supremacist's were in a very similar circumstance, perhaps you should do some real soul searching.

[Winston Smith]

Originally Posted by LASam

Here's a link for everyone so they can do their research and be ready for the upcoming election! Make sure you don't get so caught up in the Obama/McCain election that you forget to educate yourself on our state initiatives!

Voter Information Guide - California Secretary of State

Feel free to post your opinions on any of the propositions. Some healthy debate would be nice too

Bump to the OP plus voter guidelines from the Green and Libertarian parties:

Green Party of CA Elections Archive - 2008
Libertarian Party of California - Proposition Recommendations - Nov. 2008

[sav858]

Originally Posted by timelesschild

Actually you do not know me at all. I am about as tolerant a person as there is. I do not think it is OK, though, to demean others' viewpoints. It is true that happ was taking it further than you were, and s/he answered much more nicely than you did. I'm all about civil discourse here, which is apparently too much to ask for in a political thread in these times.

You demeaned mine and others viewpoints by calling them intolerant by saying we were bashing christians and southerners, when we weren't, then applied those remarks Happ made to me and others. So please take a look in the mirror before you try to call me out for "demeaning" others when you did the same thing.