Proposition 8 Supporters are not all bigots (Freedom: condo, to live in, restaurants)

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by bhcompy

if i remember correctly, and its been a few years, 22 was overturned because it was a law, not a constitutional amendment. this is a constitutional amendment, which means the state supreme court has no ability to overturn it, only interpret it. which should mean only the federal supreme court could overturn it if they felt it unconstitutional, since the us constitution supercedes state constitutions.

but this Legislature or a future one could also delete it from the Constitution with a 2/3 vote. i don't think that this would be unreasonable given that younger generations are not nearly as judgmental as the current ones are. then again, what if we have anti-Proposition 8s in EVERY election year until we inevitably remove it from the State Constitution? I think that now is the time to vote against Prop 8 so that we concentrate our efforts and $$ on things for the betterment for society now and in the future.

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by futo555

Lol , just a true hatred for religion here. I don't like the church but i think there point of view is need in a healthy society.

Why don't non profit get out of politics they don't pay tax's? Why because most work for the left and liberal views.

This come back to the core of the problem. I'm all for diversity as long as it my views. If it is not my views then it need to be shouted / shot down.

Such a joke.

government should get out of the marriage business and let people decide what they want to do to seal there bonds.

I don't dislike religion, just the "fake" religions that are more interested in building mega churches in very expensive areas of town and are too far away from their original missions of helping their local communities. after all, that is one of the major reasons that they are given tax free status. as an example, rev hagee's cornerstone church here in san antonio occupies a HUGE lot (at least 10 acres) in Stone Oak, one of the most expensive areas of SA. if it were up to me, i'd make the churches take a vow of poverty and only build MODESTLY in middle class areas. btw, there is no shortage of right wing not-for-profit organizations. ever heard of the NRA, Boy Scouts, Heritage Foundation, Focus on the Family, Concerned women for america, etc? churches shift the number of right wing non-profit organizations too far to the right.

[phoenix_talons]

Originally Posted by LovelyinLa

who's to say that Gay couples will do any better than their Straight counterparts?

No one knows that for sure. But that's not the point. It is that certain groups of people go out of the way to claim - and acted as if - marriage is sacred and should be protected, but do not treat it as such. To make it an elitist thing while within themselves continuously f**king it in the ass via huge number of divorces. It is no wonder many couples choose not to marry.

"NO" to Proposition 8. It is the sensible choice.

[TheDragonslayer]

Originally Posted by LovelyinLa

I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I'm trying to force my Religion on you because I'm not. I never said it and never implied it. I don't try to convert anyone to my beliefs and respect all religions. The issue we're having is that, I see the institution of Marriage as a Religious union ordained by God and you see it as strictly a government license. If you believe that why do you care what the union is called? I would think your main concern would be obtaining the rights?

Based on your post I can't tell if you're an Atheist or if you just have a different Religion. If you're an Atheist I would think you shouldn't care at all and if you're another faith, does your faith support Same Sex unions?

To the people who feel as if the institution of Marriage is a joke. I can't argue against that because I agree. The divorce rate is embarrassing. But you can't just give up on it because it's broken you make the pentalies steeper so that people think twice before both getting married and divorced. Also, while it's to early to get any real numbers, who's to say that Gay couples will do any better than their Straight counterparts?

I do have a question for Religious Gay people: Do you believe that Marriage is a Government license and should not be thought of as Religious? If you do recognize that Marriage was created and ordained by God, how do you feel about this? Are you conflicted because per every Religion that I've heard of says that marriage is between man and woman so in a way you're going against what you believe. Or are you solely focused on obtaining the rights?

I remember someone saying there are verses in the Bible that implies that Same Sex unions are ok, which book/verse. I'd love to read that.

I came to that conclusion because you keep saying that marriage is a religious union. It is not just a religious union, besides, a couple that wants to get married in the church and have it legal, has to have a state issued license, not a church issued license. The state does not have to have the churches permission or a church license to get married.

What difference is it wether I am gay, straight, Christian, Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, any other religion or Atheist. Marriage should be "EQUAL" to all. I have said this before; why do Christians think they can force others to follow their rules or their bible? Religious freedom means that I can believe in whatever religion I want to, or to not believe in it at all. Believing in god or the bible is not mandatory. Just look at Iraq and Iran where you have little choice in what you can believe in. How does it hurt you for me to marry who I happen to love? How would you like it if you were not allowed to marry your spouse because you were not of the same religion, age, income bracket or race. Banning gay marriage is absolutely no different than the ban that used to exist against inter racial marriage. People against it were afraid of change. I suggest that people watch " Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" and not the one with Ashton Kucher, watch the one with Sidney Poitier , Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn. Very powerful movie from 1967, the year before Loving verses Virginia ended the inter racial ban in the last hold out state. It saddens one to see in the movie, two people that love each other, have to deal with the hate and anger from their own parents just because they are not of the same race. Being in love and wanting to spend the rest of your lives together should be what is most important, not the sex, religion or race of the individuals. I just want to marry the one I love and not be told that it has to be a woman, not that I don't like women. I have many more women friends that I am close to than men, I just am not attracted to them sexually.

[happ]

Quite a powerful statement, bro

Latest poll numbers on Prop 8: No = 52% Yes = 44%

[LovelyinLa]

Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer

I came to that conclusion because you keep saying that marriage is a religious union. It is not just a religious union, besides, a couple that wants to get married in the church and have it legal, has to have a state issued license, not a church issued license. The state does not have to have the churches permission or a church license to get married.

What difference is it wether I am gay, straight, Christian, Catholic, Baptist, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, any other religion or Atheist. Marriage should be "EQUAL" to all. I have said this before; why do Christians think they can force others to follow their rules or their bible? Religious freedom means that I can believe in whatever religion I want to, or to not believe in it at all. Believing in god or the bible is not mandatory. Just look at Iraq and Iran where you have little choice in what you can believe in. How does it hurt you for me to marry who I happen to love? How would you like it if you were not allowed to marry your spouse because you were not of the same religion, age, income bracket or race. Banning gay marriage is absolutely no different than the ban that used to exist against inter racial marriage. People against it were afraid of change. I suggest that people watch " Guess Who's Coming To Dinner" and not the one with Ashton Kucher, watch the one with Sidney Poitier , Spencer Tracy and Katherine Hepburn. Very powerful movie from 1967, the year before Loving verses Virginia ended the inter racial ban in the last hold out state. It saddens one to see in the movie, two people that love each other, have to deal with the hate and anger from their own parents just because they are not of the same race. Being in love and wanting to spend the rest of your lives together should be what is most important, not the sex, religion or race of the individuals. I just want to marry the one I love and not be told that it has to be a woman, not that I don't like women. I have many more women friends that I am close to than men, I just am not attracted to them sexually.

Well, I guess that's the fundamental difference of opinion we have. To me this is not a civil rights issue. If it were a civil rights issues the issue would be whether or not all Gay couples should have the same rights as straights, notice I've never said that. I've always maintained that they should. If equal rights were the sole issue, this would no longer be an issue because even those who oppose Gay marriage are for equal rights. The issue here is whether or not to call it marriage because this is union created by God and yes, recognized by the State.

I would like to point out that while I am a Christian, it is not just Christians that are opposed to this. They are just the loudest, however, the other religions who are remaining quiet on this issue are voting against it as well.
So, it's not fair to say that only Christians are against this. But in the end however it happens, I do wish you and your partner all the rights as your straight counterparts. Thank you for having this discussion with me and I do respect your views.

God Bless.

[LASam]

If Prop 8 were to pass... I would lose a lot of pride in my home state of California. ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS DESERVE EQUAL RIGHTS. I don't care about the religious arguments... because we seperate the church and state in this country. Do the religious individuals who want this banned also want creation of false idols to be illegal? How about the Sabbath... should the government BAN us from working?

[Zapparulez]

Oh man...Prop 8 needs to pass.

Marriage is a religious ceremony...the state has no right to get involved with this issue. The state can and should issue Civil Unions to gays. There is a SEPARATION of CHURCH AND STATE for a reason...yet liberals only want to exercise that when its keeping the Church out of the State...not the State out of the Church. We should not be required to get a marriage license to get married since marriage is a RELIGIOUS CEREMONY. Period, end of story. If gays want to start their own church, let them and they can get married all they want. But only if the STATE GETS OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF REGULATING RELIGION. Until they do, I will cast a vote in favor of protecting religious freedom and since marriage has been a religious ceremony for thousands of years...I will cast a vote in favor of Prop 8. I don't like hypocrisy... This is just another example of how government has gotten too powerful.

Though I believe gays should be able to get married, I don't believe in how the state has co-opted religion and since I believe in religious freedom...I MUST vote for Prop 8 in order to protect a Civil Liberty that people on the left don't seem to care about. I feel like it's a catch 22, but I suppose it all comes down to the fact that I'd rather have religious freedom than gay marriage.

Oppose the state.

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." ~George Washington.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by LASam

If Prop 8 were to pass... I would lose a lot of pride in my home state of California. ALL LAW ABIDING CITIZENS DESERVE EQUAL RIGHTS. I don't care about the religious arguments... because we seperate the church and state in this country. Do the religious individuals who want this banned also want creation of false idols to be illegal? How about the Sabbath... should the government BAN us from working?

The word Equality is misleading. What about equality for the closely held religious beliefs of those people you mean to ignore by opposing Prop 8? The Bible condemns homosexual behavior, so who are you to tell people who live by the Bible to "F off, I don't care what you believe." This is the hypocrisy I speak off. People like you believe in equality for certain groups, screw the rest. That isn't equal all, that is inequal. That is preferential treatment to a specific group of people...that is wrong. I believe that since marriage has been a religious ceremony for thousands of years that the state has NO RIGHT to get involved. Gays should another form of union...a state can authorize a "Civil Union" with all the same rights under the state that a Marriage gives...that way you respect the sanctity of a RELIGIOUS marriage and give the Gays equality with the same STATE RIGHTS as a married couple gets. Why is it so hard for you partisans to RESPECT OTHER PEOPLES BELIEFS?!?!?!?

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

The word Equality is misleading. What about equality for the closely held religious beliefs of those people you mean to ignore by passing Prop 8? The Bible condemns homosexual behavior, so who are you to tell people who live by the Bible to "F off, I don't care what you believe." This is the hypocrisy I speak off. People like you believe in equality for certain groups, screw the rest. That isn't equal all, that is inequal. That is preferential treatment to a specific group of people...that is wrong. I believe that since marriage has been a religious ceremony for thousands of years that the state has NO RIGHT to get involved. Gays should another form of union...a state can authorize a "Civil Union" with all the same rights under the state that a Marriage gives...that way you respect the sanctity of a RELIGIOUS marriage and give the Gays equality with the same STATE RIGHTS as a married couple gets. Why is it so hard for you partisans to RESPECT OTHER PEOPLES BELIEFS?!?!?!?

btw, "You not caring about religious beliefs" because of separation of Church and State proves my point. Separation of Church and State SHOULD WORK BOTH WAYS. THE STATE NEEDS TO GET OUT OF REGULATING RELIGION JUST HAS RELIGION NEEDS TO KEEP ITS INFLUENCE OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF THE STATE. Don't be such a hypocrite! I'll leave California if Prop 8 doesn't pass...so I don't have to let my liberty go to the wayside for the benefit of "society" Screw that.