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Old 10-23-2008, 11:32 AM
 
Location: McKinleyville, California
4,868 posts, read 5,025,667 times
Reputation: 2725
Quote:
Originally Posted by LovelyinLa View Post
Well, I guess that's the fundamental difference of opinion we have. To me this is not a civil rights issue. If it were a civil rights issues the issue would be whether or not all Gay couples should have the same rights as straights, notice I've never said that. I've always maintained that they should. If equal rights were the sole issue, this would no longer be an issue because even those who oppose Gay marriage are for equal rights. The issue here is whether or not to call it marriage because this is union created by God and yes, recognized by the State.

I would like to point out that while I am a Christian, it is not just Christians that are opposed to this. They are just the loudest, however, the other religions who are remaining quiet on this issue are voting against it as well.
So, it's not fair to say that only Christians are against this. But in the end however it happens, I do wish you and your partner all the rights as your straight counterparts. Thank you for having this discussion with me and I do respect your views.

God Bless.
Only if you believe in god, is marriage created by god in your eyes. But god is not the issue here, it is indeed equal rights and when equal rights are not equal to all, it is a civil rights issue. Oh, another is that people were creating unions long before there was a bible or a belief in one specific god. God did not create marriage, people did. Using your god to deny people rights is one sided and unfair. You did not answer my question; How does my marriage affect yours or take away its validity? The only way my spouse and I, plus many others, can have the same rights as you and your spouse is to grant us the same rights to marriage. Why do I have to have a separate but un-equal semi marriage like contract?

Here is a copy of a letter that I put in one of our local papers:

A Vote No on 8 is a Vote No on Hate

Yes supporters keep saying that a no vote will mean that their children will
have to learn about gay marriage in school. Not unless the original drafters of proposition 8 had included it as a provision. Parents have to be told that their children will be taught that in school and have the option of their child not attending that class. But I think it is nearly impossible to shelter children from the media, without removing the TV, all magazines, newspapers and books. The children of today are much more aware then twenty or forty years ago. In comparison, Marriage and domestic partnership are no where near the same. Many rights that are privileged to straight couples are not included in domestic partnerships. Domestic partnerships are separate of marriage and> far from equal. What else do anti gay people want? Gay water fountains, separate sections in restaurants, maybe the back of the bus for us? A vote yes on 8 says it is OK to treat others differently. A vote no on 8 is a vote no on hate and an affirmation of "Equal Rights". Not everyone is christian, why should they get to force their beliefs of marriage on every one else. If christians do not want their children to learn about gay marriage or anything else they find objectionable, they have the option of taking their child out of public school. Please do not take away my right to marry who I choose, my relationship of twenty nine years has as much validity as anyone else's. Telling me that I have the same equal rights to marry as everyone else, as long as that person is of the opposite sex, is just like the state of Virginias saying in 1968 in Loving vrs the state of Virginia, that the man, Loving had the same equal rights to marriage as everyone else in the state, as long as his wife was of the same race. That was not equal and neither is domestic partnership. Separate but equal is not equal.
>

 
Old 10-23-2008, 11:39 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 516,997 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDragonslayer View Post
Only if you believe in god, is marriage created by god in your eyes. But god is not the issue here, it is indeed equal rights and when equal rights are not equal to all, it is a civil rights issue. Oh, another is that people were creating unions long before there was a bible or a belief in one specific god. God did not create marriage, people did. Using your god to deny people rights is one sided and unfair. You did not answer my question; How does my marriage affect yours or take away its validity? The only way my spouse and I, plus many others, can have the same rights as you and your spouse is to grant us the same rights to marriage. Why do I have to have a separate but un-equal semi marriage like contract?

Here is a copy of a letter that I put in one of our local papers:

A Vote No on 8 is a Vote No on Hate

Yes supporters keep saying that a no vote will mean that their children will
have to learn about gay marriage in school. Not unless the original drafters of proposition 8 had included it as a provision. Parents have to be told that their children will be taught that in school and have the option of their child not attending that class. But I think it is nearly impossible to shelter children from the media, without removing the TV, all magazines, newspapers and books. The children of today are much more aware then twenty or forty years ago. In comparison, Marriage and domestic partnership are no where near the same. Many rights that are privileged to straight couples are not included in domestic partnerships. Domestic partnerships are separate of marriage and> far from equal. What else do anti gay people want? Gay water fountains, separate sections in restaurants, maybe the back of the bus for us? A vote yes on 8 says it is OK to treat others differently. A vote no on 8 is a vote no on hate and an affirmation of "Equal Rights". Not everyone is christian, why should they get to force their beliefs of marriage on every one else. If christians do not want their children to learn about gay marriage or anything else they find objectionable, they have the option of taking their child out of public school. Please do not take away my right to marry who I choose, my relationship of twenty nine years has as much validity as anyone else's. Telling me that I have the same equal rights to marry as everyone else, as long as that person is of the opposite sex, is just like the state of Virginias saying in 1968 in Loving vrs the state of Virginia, that the man, Loving had the same equal rights to marriage as everyone else in the state, as long as his wife was of the same race. That was not equal and neither is domestic partnership. Separate but equal is not equal.
>
So equal rights doesn't apply to religions. I get it. You want to get rid of the Constitution too? Civil Rights for all, except for certain groups we deem as "oppressors" or what? What do you consider of religious sentiment? Where do you draw the line where we must respect certain groups and spit on the beliefs of other groups? I am curious. Where do you draw the line. Hypocrisy is running rampant in this state...no compromising anywhere to respect the RIGHTS OF BOTH SIDES.

btw, I believe in allowing the state to give equal rights to Civil Unions as under Marriage. But I am wholly against allowing the non religious to co-opt a religious ceremony. Sorry, I draw the line there. Work it out at the state level...keep the damn state out of the business of regulating religious ceremonies.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 11:41 AM
 
Location: West LA
2,318 posts, read 4,708,952 times
Reputation: 1041
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
The word Equality is misleading. What about equality for the closely held religious beliefs of those people you mean to ignore by opposing Prop 8? The Bible condemns homosexual behavior, so who are you to tell people who live by the Bible to "F off, I don't care what you believe." This is the hypocrisy I speak off. People like you believe in equality for certain groups, screw the rest. That isn't equal all, that is inequal. That is preferential treatment to a specific group of people...that is wrong. I believe that since marriage has been a religious ceremony for thousands of years that the state has NO RIGHT to get involved. Gays should another form of union...a state can authorize a "Civil Union" with all the same rights under the state that a Marriage gives...that way you respect the sanctity of a RELIGIOUS marriage and give the Gays equality with the same STATE RIGHTS as a married couple gets. Why is it so hard for you partisans to RESPECT OTHER PEOPLES BELIEFS?!?!?!?
Then I suppose the government should withdraw all rights that are given to married couples... since church and state are being mixed... and only give those rights to those with a civil union. Would that work for you?
 
Old 10-23-2008, 11:46 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 516,997 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by LASam View Post
Then I suppose the government should withdraw all rights that are given to married couples... since church and state are being mixed... and only give those rights to those with a civil union. Would that work for you?
I am all for that. I want to deregulate America...if you want to have the state regulate you then go right ahead! I am married and I have noticed nothing different about any "advantages" you speak of. I am taxed the same, and all my previous bills are the same. What exact advantages are you speaking of? In any case, all state involvement with my life is considered a hassle...not an "advantage". But that's just me. Have your "state approved" Civil Unions...I want Separation of State and Church and of Church and State. Vote yes on Prop 8 to protect your religious freedom!

“Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master.”
~George Washington
 
Old 10-23-2008, 11:53 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 516,997 times
Reputation: 104
I don't want to run around in circles. I've said my piece. There are those of us who are statist ad those of us who are not. I will not have the state poop all over my religious beliefs and I will leave California if Prop 8 fails. If California has a majority of statist voters then I will no longer have any desire to live in a place where the majority will actively work to remove all of my civil liberties for the sake of "equality". This vote will decide my future. I was born and raised a Californian, but if this vote fails the California I knew and loved will be dead to me.

PS It pains me to say that, but I won't live in a place where my rights are not respected. I have always respected the rights of all individuals. I have never been a "hater of gays or races" and I will never be a person like that...it's too bad certain minority groups don't have the same respect for my closely held beliefs. It really is as simple as that. California's new motto should be: "Equality for the select few"
 
Old 10-23-2008, 12:00 PM
 
Location: TX
734 posts, read 1,257,447 times
Reputation: 274
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
Marriage is a religious ceremony...the state has no right to get involved with this issue.
You called marriage a "religious ceremony". Yet the rest of your post, and all your posts thereafter, argue for marriage to be defined by the state. Maybe you have trouble putting 2 and 2 together. Let me help you.

What does Proposition 8 do? If passed, it changes the state Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in CA. In other words, the state gets involved in deciding who gets married (and f**k it up). But you don't want that. In fact, you voiced it clearly in caps.
Quote:
THE STATE NEEDS TO GET OUT OF REGULATING RELIGION JUST HAS RELIGION NEEDS TO KEEP ITS INFLUENCE OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF THE STATE.
Passing Proposition 8 gets state involved in church/religious issues. Perhaps you don't want to see it that way.
Quote:
STATE GETS OUT OF THE BUSINESS OF REGULATING RELIGION
So the other way around is OK for you?

Quote:
keep the damn state out of the business of regulating religious ceremonies
Defeating Proposition 8 serves the purpose.

From my experience, the worst bigots are church people.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 12:04 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 516,997 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix_talons View Post
You called marriage a "religious ceremony". Yet the rest of your post, and all your posts thereafter, argue for marriage to be defined by the state. Maybe you have trouble putting 2 and 2 together. Let me help you.

What does Proposition 8 do? If passed, it changes the state Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in CA. In other words, the state gets involved in deciding who gets married (and f**k it up). But you don't want that. In fact, you voiced it clearly in caps.Passing Proposition 8 gets state involved in church/religious issues. Ditto response.

Defeating Proposition 8 serves the purpose.

From my experience, the worst bigots are church people.
You twisted my meaning and you know it. I argued that the state should not be involved at all, but they already are and have been for almost 100 years. That was my argument for getting the state OUT of religious affairs. However, since they are not...I will vote YES ON PROP 8 to protect further curtailing of religious freedom. By forcing religion to accept something that is in violation of "God's will" then that is a violation of a person's first amendment rights.

Religious folks are not the biggest bigots around, that is just more HATE SPEECH from the left. Thank you for proving the hypocrisy I spoke about.

Do what hate mongers like you do best. Twist my words, call me a bigot, and push your agenda. Why don't you just admit that you would like to see all religion outlawed.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 12:25 PM
 
Location: TX
734 posts, read 1,257,447 times
Reputation: 274
No, you simply refused to see that a Proposition is a vote to get the state involved. Except when it conflicts with your beliefs. Then you cry that the state has no right to get involved.

That's the theme of your posts. You don't have a problem with state being involved if the state decides in favor of your beliefs. Which, to be frank, is conflicting and contradicting. But when they decide against it, you cry like a drama queen. Who's being the hypocrite here?

In addition, you haven't really define the "hypocrisy" you supposedly spoke about despite uttering the word several times. Actually, there are a number of things you haven't really define. For one, where does it say on Proposition 8 that it is "forcing religion to accept something that is in violation of "God's will""? Have you actually read Proposition 8 word for word, or do you just watch the commercials and pick it up from there?

The thing is, I took the trouble to post the link of Proposition 8 to explain my points. All you do blow is hot air. And you're the one calling people names ("hypocrisy", "hate monger").
 
Old 10-23-2008, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 516,997 times
Reputation: 104
Quote:
Originally Posted by phoenix_talons View Post
No, you simply refused to see that a Proposition is a vote to get the state involved. Except when it conflicts with your beliefs. Then you cry that the state has no right to get involved.

That's the theme of your posts. You don't have a problem with state being involved if the state decides in favor of your beliefs. Which, to be frank, is conflicting and contradicting. But when they decide against it, you cry like a drama queen. Who's being the hypocrite here?

In addition, you haven't really define the "hypocrisy" you supposedly spoke about despite uttering the word several times. Actually, there are a number of things you haven't really define. For one, where does it say on Proposition 8 that it is "forcing religion to accept something that is in violation of "God's will""? Have you actually read Proposition 8 word for word, or do you just watch the commercials and pick it up from there?

The thing is, I took the trouble to post the link of Proposition 8 to explain my points. All you do blow hot air. And you're the one calling people names ("hypocrisy", "hate monger").
OK, I was hoping I wouldn't have to defend myself against intellectually dishonest people...but here we go!

First off, I did mention I was in a "catch 22" but that I would support a vote to protect my religious freedom over a vote against religious freedom. I do not condone state involvement, but like I have stated many times already...the state is ALREADY involved. What is up for vote is a vote to remove additional state involvement on the religious ceremony of marriage. The courts have already ruled that marriage is to be regulated and controlled by the state, thus stripping several religions from its freedoms of religion. A vote for Prop 8 would remove the court rulings and restore the freedoms of religion that have been stripped from Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.

So, yes Prop 8 is "state involvement" with religion as you have stated, though your argument does little to add substance other than to attempt to catch me in a corner. The "corner" is not a corner at all. I am only trying to say that a vote for Prop 8 would protect the Civil Liberties of the devoutly religious. I also point out that you have displayed that you are very selective about which Civil Liberties deserve to be protected. That in of itself is hypocritical and further displays the fact that you are the bigot, not I.

After Prop 8 passes, I would support a measure to allow Gays all the same "rights and privies" as regular married couples under the laws of the state(so long as it isn't called marriage nor are religious ceremonies even involved). THAT is a state issue. Forcing religions to accept gay marriage is NOT A STATE ISSUE. I hope I have been clear, but if you have any more twisting of my meanings and my words then let's hash this out. I believe I have made myself clear over and over again. I am not pushing any agenda's here, unlike you. If anything, I am pushing an EQUALITY FOR ALL agenda...not just the select few you are obsessed with.

I am still trying to figure out why gays want to get married under a religious ceremony in front of God when their actions are condemned in the Bible. I understand most don't believe in God, but why go out of your way to offend the sensibilities of the devout? I don't go around spreading hate about gay people. I respect their right to choose that way of life, why am I not allowed to expect the same treatment in return? Respect my way of life if you expect me to respect yours. COMMON SENSE!

Really, what I propose is respectful to all sides and the differences are really only nuanced. I am starting to think there is a war going on and if I don't wake up to the constant attacks on my freedoms, I may wake up one day and find I don't have any.
 
Old 10-23-2008, 12:51 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 516,997 times
Reputation: 104
Ok. I'm done arguing. I think in the end there is no way any of us will change our minds. Some of us believe in the state, the rest of us believe in freedom. It really comes down to something that simple. If Prop 8 fails, then Freedom has failed in California. The ever expanding power of the state will do everything it can to curtail freedom in the name of "equality". Ironic isn't it? Rather than compromising to give equality for ALL, we will get hypocrisy which gives equality for SOME.

Have a good one, continue the debate without me!
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