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Old 10-23-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
OK, I was hoping I wouldn't have to defend myself against intellectually dishonest people
That is not our fault!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
What is up for vote is a vote to remove additional state involvement on the religious ceremony of marriage. The courts have already ruled that marriage is to be regulated and controlled by the state, thus stripping several religions from its freedoms of religion.
Marriage has alway been a civil union first and foremost. Perhaps you need to do more reading, and less decrying and calling people "bigots", "intellectually dishonest", twisting your words, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
A vote for Prop 8 would remove the court rulings and restore the freedoms of religion that have been stripped from Christianity, Judaism, and Islam.
Very funny. Last time I checked, the United States of America is a democratic country. Not Communist. What "freedoms" do you think have been stripped from religion?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I am only trying to say that a vote for Prop 8 would protect the Civil Liberties of the devoutly religious.
Exactly both our points! However, you didn't stop there...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I also point out that you have displayed that you are very selective about which Civil Liberties deserve to be protected. That in of itself is hypocritical and further displays the fact that you are the bigot, not I.
And you're not being "selective". Protecting the Civil Liberties of the devoutly religious at the expense of others. That's being selective, which you have clearly demonstrated.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
Forcing religions to accept gay marriage is NOT A STATE ISSUE.
But you have stated repeatedly that it is a state issue. That's why you're complaining so hard, arguing that Proposition 8 has to be passed so that the liberties of religious establishment don't get trampled. You got emotional and called me names. Now you're saying it's not a state issue. Make up your mind. Is it a state issue or is it not?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
if you have any more twisting of my meanings and my words then let's hash this out.
If you can't take the heat, get out of the oven.
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Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
Respect my way of life if you expect me to respect yours.
How are people not respecting your way of life? Please elaborate.
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Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I am starting to think there is a war going on and if I don't wake up to the constant attacks on my freedoms, I may wake up one day and find I don't have any.
Just for our amusement, what country are you living in?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
then Freedom has failed in California.
Let's see. Heterosexual couples can marry and divorce whenever they want. Youths can pop liquor and get behind the wheel. Women can get boob jobs, botox, liposuction, even decide how many kids they want to have (or not). Kids can skip school whenever they feel like it. We can all shoot heroin, cocaine and other narcotics. Wow, freedom has failed!
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
Ok. I'm done arguing. I think in the end there is no way any of us will change our minds. Some of us believe in the state, the rest of us believe in freedom. It really comes down to something that simple. If Prop 8 fails, then Freedom has failed in California. The ever expanding power of the state will do everything it can to curtail freedom in the name of "equality". Ironic isn't it? Rather than compromising to give equality for ALL, we will get hypocrisy which gives equality for SOME.

Have a good one, continue the debate without me!

Your arguments make no sense at all. if Prop 8 is defeated, then Freedom will have won in california by treating its citizens equally without discrimination. But i know from years of experience that ppl like you would never understand that.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:09 PM
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[quote=TheDragonslayer;5819741]Only if you believe in god, is marriage created by god in your eyes.

It is in the eyes of many
Here is a copy of a letter that I put in one of our local papers:

A Vote No on 8 is a Vote No on Hate

Because someone doesn't believe in what you believe doesn't make it hate. Is it that hard to understand?
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:26 PM
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Zapparulez will become famous soon enoughZapparulez will become famous soon enough
I give up. You people just don't get it. Equality for some does not mean equality for all.

Try reading the links you post as well:

Marriage is a social, religious, spiritual, or legal union of individuals. This union may also be called matrimony, while the ceremony that marks its beginning is usually called a wedding and the married status created is sometimes called wedlock.
Marriage is an institution in which interpersonal relationships (usually intimate and sexual) are acknowledged by the state or by religious authority. It is often viewed as a contract. Civil marriage is the legal concept of marriage as a governmental institution, in accordance with marriage laws of the jurisdiction. If recognized by the state, by the religion(s) to which the parties belong or by society in general, the act of marriage changes the personal and social status of the individuals who enter into it.
People marry for many reasons, but usually one or more of the following: legal, social, and economic stability; the formation of a family unit; procreation and the education and nurturing of children; legitimizing sexual relations; public declaration of love; or to obtain citizenship.[1][2]
Marriage may take many forms: for example, a union between one man and one woman as husband and wife is a monogamous heterosexual marriage; polygamy – in which a person takes more than one spouse – is common in some societies.[3] Recently, some jurisdictions[4] and denominations[5][6][7] have begun to recognize same-sex marriage, uniting people of the same sex.
A marriage is often formalized during a marriage ceremony,[8] which may be performed either by a religious officiant, by a secular State authorised officiator, or (in weddings that have no church or state affiliation) by a trusted friend of the wedding participants. The act of marriage usually creates normative or legal obligations between the individuals involved and, in many societies, their extended families.
Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights declares that "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses." The Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam gives men and women the "right to marriage" regardless of their race, colour or nationality, but not religion.




~~~

Marriage has not always been a Civil Union regulated by the state. The State should not be involved. I am not going to argue this anymore with you people. I don't like agenda's and I don't like people trying to portray me as something I am not. You are the worst kind of activists. Using words like equality to advance an agenda is just evil. I wish to protect a first amendment right of religious freedom...you desire to strip it down and convolute the issue in order to mold society into something you desire. You are no different than the extremists on the other side. In the end, we ALL will have less freedom because the state always wins in a situation like this. Why can't you people see that?!?


And why is it okay to discriminate against the religious? And what am I to you? Am I the religious bigot you are referring too? Are you fear mongering people into a no vote by calling all the yes voters bigots and hate mongers? If you truly believed in freedom and equality you would be trying to figure out a way to respect ALL beliefs, but you only care about respecting ONE belief. I am trying to come up with as solution to satisfy both sides and for that even I am being called a bigot and a hateful discriminator. I hope the people who read this understand and see you for what you are.



I will vote yes on Prop 8 and I will leave California if it fails to pass. I feel sorry for you that you do not see reality for what it is. I have never done anything hateful or spiteful to any gay person, nor would I ever. However, my religious beliefs(not even as devout as I should be) are being stripped away from me and because I oppose that; those who want gay marriage say I am discriminating and a bigot. You are destroying the nation by destroying its diverse ethno-religious background. You want to make everyone the same, but not equal under God...rather equal under certain agendas. I cannot condone that and I will not live under that type of Tyranny.


I am truly done here now... I just can't handle the absurdity of the arguements any longer. Besides, if being gay is a personal choice then so is being religious which makes the wants and needs of both sides EQUAL. You cannot ignore one side just to advance the agenda of the other. That is what happened when the courts made this ruling, so the reaction was Prop 8 which is equally inequal as the court decision. Since neither side is willing to compromise, the final battle of this war is Prop 8. It's too bad no one was willing to work for a compromise that was mutually unsatisfying. If religion loses its war for freedom, I will leave California. That is what it comes down too. I would have "preferred" a compromise, but it really is too late for that. I cannot side with the gay agenda because I am not gay...I am a Christian, therefore I should vote for the agenda that protects my freedoms and Civil Rights. There is nothing bigotted about that...nothing at all. Why would I cast a vote against my self interest? Are you saying, I should sacrifice for the benefit of society? lol Sorry, that is how Hitler convinced a nation to follow him...



I digress...I love California and have lived here all of my life, but I can put up with only so much tyranny. I am already close to wanting to leave because of the growth of the state over the past 20 years...but I think this might be the death blow for me. My love of freedom will overrule my love of California.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
You twisted my meaning and you know it. I argued that the state should not be involved at all, but they already are and have been for almost 100 years. That was my argument for getting the state OUT of religious affairs. However, since they are not...I will vote YES ON PROP 8 to protect further curtailing of religious freedom. By forcing religion to accept something that is in violation of "God's will" then that is a violation of a person's first amendment rights.

Religious folks are not the biggest bigots around, that is just more HATE SPEECH from the left. Thank you for proving the hypocrisy I spoke about.

Do what hate mongers like you do best. Twist my words, call me a bigot, and push your agenda. Why don't you just admit that you would like to see all religion outlawed.
Frankly, you make me ashame to be a Christian as you distort & ignore your own faith. How is it that some Christians bless gay marriage? Are they less Christian than you? Please do not speak for the Church since your God is angry\ wrathful instead of loving & inclusive. That is why many Christians are voting against Prop 8 to clearly separate ourselves from a primitive Bible-Belt misunderstanding of the Gospel.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I give up. You people just don't get it. Equality for some does not mean equality for all.
* snip *
Do yourself a big favor. Recite what you just wrote on an audio recorder and play it back for yourself to hear. It sounds like nonsensical propaganda with no factual support. Surely if what you say makes complete sense, your Christian brethrens in this forum will rally to you. Where are they?
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by happ View Post
Frankly, you make me ashame to be a Christian as you distort & ignore your own faith. How is it that some Christians bless gay marriage? Are they less Christian than you? Please do not speak for the Church since your God is angry\ wrathful instead of loving & inclusive. That is why many Christians are voting against Prop 8 to clearly separate ourselves from a primitive Bible-Belt misunderstanding of the Gospel.
Oye. So how do you understand the Gospel? Is it written in a different language? Which part of the Bible specifically approves of homosexuality? Anyone care to list the verses that specifically forbid it?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, just pointing out the basic problems most Christians/Jews/Muslims have with gay marriage. I have no problem with them making their own individual choices, but when they try to co-opt a religious ceremony then I take issue with it.

I believe in a live and let live policy...why can't they let it be?? Why must they co-opt some of the most closely held beliefs of a religion? And your understanding of the teachings of the Bible are waaaay off base. Call me primitive, but I still read the same verses you do. lol At least I think I do...

I keep saying I am going to stop, but I feel I must keep defending myself until someone else takes over here...
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:42 PM
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Originally Posted by phoenix_talons View Post
Do yourself a big favor. Recite what you just wrote on an audio recorder and play it back for yourself to hear. It sounds like nonsensical propaganda with no factual support. Surely if what you say makes complete sense, your Christian brethrens in this forum will rally to you. Where are they?
I don't care. I have no Christian brethren, because I do not support their ideological campaign to stamp out homosexuality as I do not support the gay agenda of stamping out any religious freedom. I am a 'tweener which obviously opens me up to attack by you. I will vote for Prop 8 because it will keep statist like you from taking away more of my freedom. Don't feel vindicated. You have everyone afraid to speak in protest because of the laughable attempts at labeling any dissenter as a BIGOT or DISCRIMINATOR. I should call you GW Bush witha ll the fear mongering you people are whipping up. Give it a rest.
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I believe in a live and let live policy
How is that Christian as opposed to Proposition 8 failing?
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Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
At least I think I do...
Now you're starting to get it.
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Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I keep saying I am going to stop, but I feel I must keep defending myself until someone else takes over here...
Let your "yes" be yes and "no" be no. Anything other than that comes from the evil one. The book of James calls such behavior "double-minded, unstable in all his ways".
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Old 10-23-2008, 02:48 PM
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btw, Equality for Some is not the same as Equality for All. Do you not realize that the pendulum swings both ways? By taking away the religious significance of marriage from the Christian/Jew/Muslim, you are taking away their freedom of religion. Now read that statement by applying it to what I just said rather than just applying it to your beliefs. EQUALITY FOR SOME is applied to both sides moron. Jesus...can you not see that you are trying to take away the equal rights from the other side? COMPROMISE so that both sides have Equality. Equality=Freedom right? Freedom of RELIGION included RIGHT? You need to use that brain to see reality from both sides of the fence. It's hilarious to me that you cannot see from where the other side is coming from. You are blinded by your hate. I can see from both sides...which is why I wish you all would compromise to respect BOTH sides so that BOTH sides can have the same EQUALITY. Damn, how much do I have to dumb this down before you can see through your blinders(agenda)?????

Like I said, EQUALITY FOR SOME does not mean EQUALITY FOR ALL. Prop 8 is not Equality for ALL, but neither was the court rulings that legalized gay marriage. EQUALITY FOR ALL IS SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN. Am I through that thick skull of yours yet?????
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