Proposition 8 Supporters are not all bigots (Lincoln, Freedom: eyeglasses, homes, to live)

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by rb62

It's pretty convenience when you can rationalize your hate based on a primitive and archaic beliefs isn't it? Do you also believe the world is flat? You know the pope had Galileo tortured because he suggested that it was round, and was not exhonerated until 1980. Do you wear blended fabrics? Eat shellfish? Ever masturbated? What about divorce? Are these people ex-communicated....for life? What about fornicators? Do you believe there are that many people who actually save themselves for marriage? And what about "judging" others, particularly with such vitriole. What about women in the church? You know women aren't suppose to recite scripture nor lead a mass in church. What about racism and slavery? Do you believe in Ham, the black son of Noah being damned for eternity? And unlike all of these things listed, homosexuality is an organic phenomena, it is not a choice and the Catholic church recognizes that.

The draconian dogma antiquated religion provokes is precisely what fuels the growing progressive movement in society; slowly the church is being eroded away. The final step will be to impose a tax on the church, as it should be taxed. In the 21st century people are not going to adhere to such unintelligent notions of old school religion.

It's funny that you can rationalize your hate based on your narrow belief in Equality for the Few. Why not figure out a compromise rather than compromising the beliefs of your fellow citizens? Is it that hard to figure out a way to COEXIST? AS EQUAL PARTNERS? Respect us and we will Respect YOU! R-E-S-P-E-C-T

There is a way we can both have what we want without offending the other all that much. If the gay community hadn't been so obsessed with redefining marriage as they are, then they'd probably already have full status in the eyes of the state. Instead, they want to transform society to mold it in an image they can approve of...sorry, not going to happen Bub.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by Rosalindayu

What about the other two?

Prostitution will be around long after abortions and strip clubs. That is a guarantee. Hell, we've already killed 50 million unborn babies. What's the record? I want that!

My wife was born 3 months premature. The doctors wanted to abort her because she was sharing blood with her mother. My mother-in-law, a strong catholic woman, refused and told doctors to do everything possible to save the baby and then worry about her.

The result? I have a loving wife, wonderful children, and one hell of a mother-in-law. I can never condone abortion. I used too, but my wife changed my view on that one. Every fetus should have a right to exist. The mother's wishes be damned!

Let's see what the gay activists on this thread have to say about that! I am a bigot after all.

[1AngryTaxPayer]

Originally Posted by rb62

It's pretty convenience when you can rationalize your hate based on a primitive and archaic beliefs isn't it? Do you also believe the world is flat? You know the pope had Galileo tortured because he suggested that it was round, and was not exhonerated until 1980. Do you wear blended fabrics? Eat shellfish? Ever masturbated? What about divorce? Are these people ex-communicated....for life? What about fornicators? Do you believe there are that many people who actually save themselves for marriage? And what about "judging" others, particularly with such vitriole. What about women in the church? You know women aren't suppose to recite scripture nor lead a mass in church. What about racism and slavery? Do you believe in Ham, the black son of Noah being damned for eternity? And unlike all of these things listed, homosexuality is an organic phenomena, it is not a choice and the Catholic church recognizes that.

The draconian dogma antiquated religion provokes is precisely what fuels the growing progressive movement in society; slowly the church is being eroded away. The final step will be to impose a tax on the church, as it should be taxed. In the 21st century people are not going to adhere to such unintelligent notions of old school religion.

So two guys can have sex and form a child? Two woman? Has evolution advanced that far? Not everyone believes that "gay" is an advancement of Society. Two gay humans cannot procreate and pass along the genetic material to create a "gay" offspring. I have many gay friends, work with gays, even have hung out with gays but for me to think that marriage of two same sex people is part of hundreds of years of marriage as it has been? NO

[1AngryTaxPayer]

[quote=Rosalindayu;5825538]The bible hasn't changed, are people's interpretaions quote]


what?

[happ]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

No. The state's interpretation of the Bible has changed. The people basically still read and believe the same words of the Bible for the past 150 years. Christianity has gone through several revivals and transformations. There was a revival in the 70's, but the last transformation took place in the 1800's. And the last one before that was basically the protestant revolution in the 1600's. Religion is not as progressive as liberals are. Sorry.

Please be specific. When you speak of the Christian church are you referring to evangelicals\ Baptists\ Mormons? Biblical interpretation is on-going based on cultural aspects. Do you follow all the requirements of Leviticus? Using the Bible to hate people is a sin.

You are not like any Christian I know [thank God

[Roaddog]

Originally Posted by Rosalindayu

What about the other two?

The other two are legal, no they don't teach strip club 101 but abortion is offered to 14 year olds through the school system and there has been a first grade class taken to a gay wedding during class time so any arguement on if gayness will be taught in schools is useless because it already has been.
Like I said before no one will change their minds because of this thread.

[Zapparulez]

Originally Posted by happ

Please be specific. When you speak of the Christian church are you referring to evangelicals\ Baptists\ Mormons? Biblical interpretation is on-going based on cultural aspects. Do you follow all the requirements of Leviticus? Using the Bible to hate people is a sin.

You are not like any Christian I know [thank God

I don't have the time to go into it all, but basically all of the above. If you want to know how the religions have evolved throughout history, read the book: "How God Saved Civilization" by Garlow

I am a history nut, so I have all sorts of history books. Ironically, its in my bookcase in between "The Inconvenient Truth" and Biggs "Wealth, War & Wisdom".

You do not understand religious motives at all. I do not hate anyone. A goal of a Christian, as I know it, is to "save" people from their sins. Ultimately it is there choice...none of my fargin' business. You are twisting reality again to insult me. Perhaps if you picked up the Bible and read it once you might understand a little better, but you despise the Bible and everything in it...your words say as much without coming out and actually typing it.

There is an air of superiority here that is bothersome. I read all sorts of books and I always try to continue to expand my understanding of things, so it is rather irritating to be confronted by simplistic views on just about every issue brought forth. Then to be overtly called a bigot or to be discriminating against a minority(HA!). The final battle is only a few weeks away and it is obvious you are scared of the "Will of the People". Most tyrants are scare of that.

[TheDragonslayer]

Originally Posted by LovelyinLa

First, we have to agree to disagree on whether or not Marriage is religious. To me, this argument is ridiculous because I am religious and it's what my bible says, so as I said in my first post there is no way to remove Religion from a topic about a Religious ceremony. So to argue this point with you is redundant, I'll never change my mind and neither will you. I do agree with Zapp that the reason we're even arguing about this is due to the State's involvement. If there were no license and no rights associated with the word "Marriage" you wouldn't be fighting to be called married. You would've created a ritual of your own and that would be it. So to be clear, are you fighting for the right to be called "married" or are you're fighting for the rights associated with it? Which is it?

If you're fighting for the rights that are associated with Marriage, than yes it's a Civil Rights issue. However, I haven't heard anyone say that Gay couples shouldn't have the same rights as straight couples. We're all agreed on this. The problem is, you're not fighting for the rights you're fighting for the label. This is where you can't remove religion, Marriage is and always will be a union blessed by God. Are there people who don't believe in God that are married, I can't do anything about that. There are also people who do not believe in Jesus and celebrate Christmas. I can't do anything about that either.

I see Marriage as between a man and wife as God intended, therefore, based on my beliefs Same Sex unions are not blessed by God. I was trying not to say that but again, this is a religious conversation and well it is what it is. No matter how hurtful, or unfair it seems until someone can show me something in the bible that says differently, that's my belief as a Christian.

So if you're fighting for the rights of Marriage, again, I'm all for it. But that doesn't seem to be the issue. I've never heard you mention expanding DP's so that those rights are equal to those of Marriage. No, it seems that the real fight here is whether or not Same Sex couples can be labeled as Married. This is the reason why this is not a civil rights issue, you're not arguing rights you're arguing Religion/labels.

BTW, how does a Gay couple, get married (commitment ceremony), with a priest reading the bible and possibly think that this isn't a Religious ceremony. It's the entire point. I'm not going to ask, how they reconcile calling it a marriage when if they open the book they're basing the ceremony on, it clearly says man and wife. I realize this doesn't apply to you, but there are plenty of Gay Christians out there who I'm sure have struggled with this question.

I think I answered them all, if not I'll respond when I get back. Going to hair appointment. Perfect topic for the salon

I got married for the rights not the label. People that do not believe in god or the bible get married. I did not get married in a church, nor was god mentioned in our ceremony. I do not care one bit that you are a christian. That is your choice. You are wrong, this is not a thread about religion, it is about proposition 8 taking away the rights of gays to be married. I think you need to read my posts again, I said that domestic partnerships does not provide the same rights or protections that you take for granted in your marriage. Why should I have to have second best because you value your religion more than equal rights. To me this is a civil rights situation. I think you would feel the same, if you were not allowed to marry someone you loved because you were not both christian, or both white, or both african american. You want to deny me the same rights that you enjoy, because my partner and I are of the same sex. You want your christian religion to dominate and be the one to decide everyone else's rights. God is not in my life, so your god and anyone else's does not pertain to me. Show me the law that says someone has to believe in god or religion. As a married person, you can inherit your spouses property without outrageous taxation or probate, it is not the same in Domestic partnerships. Without the rights of marriage, if my partner should pass on, I probably would not be able to afford to keep our home due to the expense. Who said god has to bless a union for it to be valid. It was not said when I got married and I would not have wanted it said. The fact that I love my partner and want to share the rest of my life with him should be enough. That is a lot more than I can say for all the divorced straights that are remarried for the third, fourth or more time. Why can they get married in the church?

[18Montclair]

I think the way to resolve this is as follows. Remove the term marriage from all govt records. Marriage is an institution that arguably has its origin in religion so therefore, take it out of the public arena once and for all.

The govt should issue civil marriage licenses to all couples regardless of their sexual orientation.

Marriages should be solemnized by religious denominations. Each denomination should be allowed to marry whomever they choose. Some already marry gays and lesbians and like those who choose to marry only straight couples, its their perogative.

That way, we satisfy the law's requirement that couples be lawfully recognized and still retain our rights to freedom of religion.

My 2 Cents.

[happ]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

Prostitution will be around long after abortions and strip clubs. That is a guarantee. Hell, we've already killed 50 million unborn babies. What's the record? I want that!

My wife was born 3 months premature. The doctors wanted to abort her because she was sharing blood with her mother. My mother-in-law, a strong catholic woman, refused and told doctors to do everything possible to save the baby and then worry about her.

The result? I have a loving wife, wonderful children, and one hell of a mother-in-law. I can never condone abortion. I used too, but my wife changed my view on that one. Every fetus should have a right to exist. The mother's wishes be damned!

Let's see what the gay activists on this thread have to say about that! I am a bigot after all.

Just curious, Zapparulez, are you a Catholic?