Proposition 8 Supporters are not all bigots (Freedom: credit, property taxes, horse)
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They say never discuss religion and politics. But this thread does both. Many ppl from many different backgrounds have spoken. Some threads are a little heated because ppl are passionate about these issues. I think it represents how diverse our state is. Either way we have to learn to live together in CA and America, ironically like a marriage, for better or worse. I didn't say we have to agree on everything. But it is important to Respect each other as different as we are.
So how can both sides show a little more Respect for the other without giving up their beliefs, ideologies, etc... Believe it or not this does not end in two weeks. Like it or not these issues will be ongoing most likely beyond our life times.
So with that in mind here are two things to consider:
1. The vote comes in as NO. How do gays and other still show respect for other ppl's views regarding marriage which differs from their own? How about not forcing the issue in the school systems or not sueing churches for teaching their version of marriage. Is it really necessary to go to such extremes to make points when really all it does is stir ppl up and upset them more. I know, I can already hear the comments about this Not being about religion or education, etc... But the simple fact is some have made it about that. The examples are already there.
2. The vote comes in as YES. How about fighting for civil unions to have the 'same' civil rights as 'Marriage' therefore making this whole argument, proposition and thread a waste of time. If having the same rights is 'really' all that is wanted here then lets change it and make sure there are no loopholes, restrictions, extra expenses, etc... that have been mentioned here many times over. Is there anything wrong with fighting for that? Wouldn't the majority of ppl participating in this thread support this? Wouldn't the majority of Californians and American's support this?
Do this make sense to anyone? Instead of always fighting each other why not try a little harder to provide 'something' for the other side as well?
Zapparulez, I don't have the time to go into it all, but basically all of the above. If you want to know how the religions have evolved throughout history, read the book: "How God Saved Civilization" by Garlow
I am a history nut, so I have all sorts of history books. Ironically, its in my bookcase in between "The Inconvenient Truth" and Biggs "Wealth, War & Wisdom".
You do not understand religious motives at all. I do not hate anyone. A goal of a Christian, as I know it, is to "save" people from their sins.
Since when do Christians save others? Only God saves all. We don't save anyone but rather, we live a life of acceptance & forgiveness, like Christ. Your theology appears to be outside the beliefs of Christianity. Reminds me of the Islamics killing each other for Allah.
Your reading list is characteristic of homespun native Bible-Belt. You might want to add the Bible starting with the Gospels.
The reason I oppose you is that you appear to be out-of-the-mainstream of both Christianity & society. And have no right to judge others!
They say never discuss religion and politics. But this thread does both. Many ppl from many different backgrounds have spoken. Some threads are a little heated because ppl are passionate about these issues. I think it represents how diverse our state is. Either way we have to learn to live together in CA and America, ironically like a marriage, for better or worse. I didn't say we have to agree on everything. But it is important to Respect each other as different as we are.
So how can both sides show a little more Respect for the other without giving up their beliefs, ideologies, etc... Believe it or not this does not end in two weeks. Like it or not these issues will be ongoing most likely beyond our life times.
So with that in mind here are two things to consider:
1. The vote comes in as NO. How do gays and other still show respect for other ppl's views regarding marriage which differs from their own? How about not forcing the issue in the school systems or not sueing churches for teaching their version of marriage. Is it really necessary to go to such extremes to make points when really all it does is stir ppl up and upset them more. I know, I can already hear the comments about this Not being about religion or education, etc... But the simple fact is some have made it about that. The examples are already there.
2. The vote comes in as YES. How about fighting for civil unions to have the 'same' civil rights as 'Marriage' therefore making this whole argument, proposition and thread a waste of time. If having the same rights is 'really' all that is wanted here then lets change it and make sure there are no loopholes, restrictions, extra expenses, etc... that have been mentioned here many times over. Is there anything wrong with fighting for that? Wouldn't the majority of ppl participating in this thread support this? Wouldn't the majority of Californians and American's support this?
Do this make sense to anyone? Instead of always fighting each other why not try a little harder to provide 'something' for the other side as well?
Derek
To be honest, that was what I was trying to hammer home. I am just not very eloquent and can be very abrasive while discussing this issue. I would prefer option #2...equality while protecting marriage as a religious act.
Since when do Christians save others? Only God saves all. We don't save anyone but rather, we live a life of acceptance & forgiveness, like Christ. Your theology appears to be outside the beliefs of Christianity. Reminds me of the Islamics killing each other for Allah.
Your reading list is characteristic of homespun native Bible-Belt. You might want to add the Bible starting with the Gospels.
The reason I oppose you is that you appear to be out-of-the-mainstream of both Christianity & society. And have no right to judge others!
Ok, you took my comment out of context again. I said RIGHT AFTER THAT SNIP YOU ATTACKED, that *I* am not in the business of changing the way people live. It is THEIR choice. You make wild assumptions based on your narrow views of "religious" people. I am outside the mainstream of Christianity, because mainstream Christianity wants to OUTLAW homosexual behavior. I do not.
Try not to just pick one sentence from a whole post to base a critism upon me. Taking the whole thing out of context. Liberals seem to have knack for it. I consider that to be very intellectually dishonest. Why don't you post that sentence right before the VERY NEXT sentence I typed. I don't even know why I am responding to you...all that does is give legitimacy to your arguement when there is none.
I confess to not having read this entire thread, but here is my take on it...
First of all, marriage is not always a religious ceremony. You can get married at the county court house! That's a secular marriage, not a religious one, but it's still binding by law.
When my kids were in school not so long ago, they had to get signed permission slips for sex education. How many educators discuss marriage at all in the curriculum?
I am proudly voting "no" on 8.
I'm not the author of this piece, but wanted to share it, anyway... (I tried tracking down the original author, but this has apparently been around since at least 2005.)
10 Reasons Why Gay Marriage Is Wrong
01) Being gay is not natural. Real Americans always reject unnatural things like eyeglasses, polyester, and air conditioning.
02) Gay marriage will encourage people to be gay, in the same way that hanging around tall people will make you tall.
03) Legalizing gay marriage will open the door to all kinds of crazy behavior. People may even wish to marry their pets because a dog has legal standing and can sign a marriage contract.
04) Straight marriage has been around a long time and hasn't changed at all; women are still property, blacks still can't marry whites, and divorce is still illegal.
05) Straight marriage will be less meaningful if gay marriage were allowed; the sanctity of Britany Spears' 55-hour just-for-fun marriage would be destroyed.
06) Straight marriages are valid because they produce children. Gay couples, infertile couples, and old people shouldn't be allowed to marry because our orphanages aren't full yet, and the world needs more children.
07) Obviously gay parents will raise gay children, since straight parents only raise straight children.
08) Gay marriage is not supported by religion. In a theocracy like ours, the values of one religion are imposed on the entire country. That's why we have only one religion in America.
09) Children can never succeed without a male and a female role model at home. That's why we as a society expressly forbid single parents to raise children.
10) Gay marriage will change the foundation of society; we could never adapt to new social norms. Just like we haven't adapted to cars, the service-sector economy, or longer life spans.
Ok, you took my comment out of context again. I said RIGHT AFTER THAT SNIP YOU ATTACKED, that *I* am not in the business of changing the way people live. It is THEIR choice. You make wild assumptions based on your narrow views of "religious" people. I am outside the mainstream of Christianity, because mainstream Christianity wants to OUTLAW homosexual behavior. I do not.
Try not to just pick one sentence from a whole post to base a critism upon me. Taking the whole thing out of context. Liberals seem to have knack for it. I consider that to be very intellectually dishonest. Why don't you post that sentence right before the VERY NEXT sentence I typed. I don't even know why I am responding to you...all that does is give legitimacy to your arguement when there is none.
Allahu Ahkbar! :P
"Better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak out and remove all doubt." - Abraham Lincoln
Sandy, it's not like the state of institution of marriage is any good. The people of California have to prove by their example that it is worth protecting. Don't just talk the talk. Walk the walk!
I would like to take a minute, as a person who is in a same-sex marriage to say that I don't appreciate the folks who are saying that ALL proponents of prop 8 are bigots and basing their opinions on hate.
The one thing the yes on 8 folks are right about is that if we are going to support tolerance it has to go both ways. We should be tolerant of their religous convictions.
Although there are PLENTY of bigots supporting the measure, it is counterproductive to generalize and prejudice based on this. Some people are just truly misled and believe that a yes on prop 8 would protect their children etc. Of course, this is not true, but can't we be tolerant of them as well?
I have no doubt, that given a civil debate and appealing to those who are actually not bigots but are planning on voting yes on 8 we will win every time. They are out there, they aren't bigots, and if they hear the truth I have no doubt they will do the right thing and eventually vote no on 8.
Tolerance goes both ways. Im willing to support that and hopefully a few folks who had originally planned on voting yes on 8 will have a civil discussion with me as to the merits of my position that a no vote on proposition 8 is a necessity in a society that does not discriminate against minorities. Let us talk with the honestly good people who have been lied to. Its not their fault, they are making rational decisions. We know that 50% of California is not irrational! Lets be real and reach out with compassion in the same way we want to be treated.
Sincerely,
Please talk to me civilly about why a no vote on 8 is the right thing to do.
I think that taking basic rights away from another human being is morally wrong. When a religion dictates "rules" as to how a human being seeks happiness (especially when it hurts no one else) then that religion is just trying to control you- it's really just a dictatorship.
There was a time when women couldn't vote, when interracial marriage was illegal, and only white people could enter certain places of business. I don't agree with some members of our society being treated as a second class citizen.
It's time to move forward and get over the discrimination and hatred/disapproval of another human beings life choices- Especially when it doesn't affect your life in any way. The world will not end if gays can marry. If two people will be happy and it hurts nobody else, then let them.
As a happily married woman with children, I can tell you that two people that love each other shouldn't have this right taken away. It doesn't hurt my marriage since my focus is on MY marriage, not anyone else's. I think that people are far too obsessed with gay people frankly.
The whole argument about "teaching it in schools" is completely false. Nobody is going to tell your children who or who not to marry. When teachers do discuss families (which is not really going on in school anyway, other than "draw a picture of your family") they are not going to promote or single out any kind of marriage. I think if the religious want to really protect marriage/families perhaps they should try to outlaw divorce amongst themselves.
i feel uncomfortable telling 10% of the population how they should live their life, especially when our current expression of marriage is in such a pathetic state. let he who can hit the ball step up to the plate.
i feel uncomfortable telling 10% of the population how they should live their life, especially when our current expression of marriage is in such a pathetic state. let he who can hit the ball step up to the plate.
I don't tell them how to live their life...but who protects my religious belief that marriage is between a man and a woman? Are my religious beliefs of no consequence to the majority? Am I just "gonna have to change my religious beliefs" because they are "wrong to your personal beliefs"? This makes no common sense. You expect us to roll over and change my religious convictions for the sake of a smaller minority, while expecting me to not ask for them to change their way of living for my sake. This makes no sense to me. You are just ignoring the closely held beliefs of a vast number of people for the benefit of the few. That is not right. I am not calling for California to outlaw homosexual behavior...that is WRONG for me to do....but then you want to pass a law that redefines the religious act of marriage. To me that is the same as someone wanting to outlaw homosexual behavior...it makes no sense, unless your goal is to force religions to change to the way you think they should be. That too is wrong. I will proudly vote for Prop 8 to do what I can to preserve Religious Freedom from the long arm of the state. If gays want the same rights under state law then they can go about it differently...I will not stand idly by and watch my definition of marriage destroyed by the state. You can't just rewrite what is written in the Bible...
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