Proposition 8 Supporters are not all bigots (how much, school districts, exemption)
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The schools will not teach your children anything you disaprove of in the state of California. There is a law that allows you to prevent that in california. That law does not exist in massachusets.
I agree you have a right to raise your child as you please. But please don't allow yourself to be fooled by people who want your vote on proposition 8 to be about how your children are raised. Its not about that. It is about two adults being married.
Consider also, that your children may turn out to be gay.. Wouldnt you want them to have the right to be married? My mom never would have thought 25 years ago that I would be marrying the love of my life and he would also be a man. But she loves and supports me, just like you love and support your children. Were you to vote yes now, and 20 years from now your children ask why they cant marry the person they love.. How would you feel telling them that it was because you voted to ammend the constitution permanently to be against them? It will be a painful day for both you and your children. A twisted result of what originated in the very same good intentions to protect them, would have harmed them greater than ever imaginable.
This issue is complex. But it has a simple answer. One vote at a time, as if the people's marriages you are voting on are your children's.
Hummmm, I have always considered myself a liberal, live and let live. I'm a graphic artist, female, and have met and liked the gay men in my industry. Fully believe same sex couples should have the joys of life the same as anybody else...
But, I am also a parent and feel uncomfortable having this issue added to the education process of my children...keep in mind I haven't even explained sex to my 9 year old daughter yet, chicken that I am. But I don't want the schools explaining, sex, marriage, or same sex marriages to my kids. That is my job as a parent.
My understanding is same sex marriages will enter the school education system and I don't want that to happen. So I will vote "Yes" on 8.
Izzy
Unfortunately, parents are being duped into voting for proposition 8 with lies created to do just that; bring in the yes votes. Proposition 8 was set up by those wanting to exclude the rights of marriage to gays and lesbians. There is no inclusion in the proposition that would make the schools have to teach about gay marriage to kids. That is bogus. Gays did not write up this proposition, straights did. A no vote does not change the state constitution, a yes vote does. Proposition 8 supporters are using scare tactics and subterfuge to get their votes. You are voting yes because of a lie or lies you heard on TV.
Under the California Education Code there is an entire section (S51937-51939) on parental rights and exenptions. This section covers the type of education that the ad cites. It says
"It is the intent of the legislature...to respect the rights of parents or guardians to supervise their children's education on these subjects.. and, if they wish, to excuse their children from participation in all or part of that instruction or evaluation."..."parents and guardians have the ultimate responsibility for imparting values regarding human sexuality to their children"
Proposition 8 is NOT about public education. Proposition 8 is NOT about religious freedom. Proposition 8 is NOT about tax exemptions. If these were the concerns, then wouldn't Proposition 8 include language to address them?
Church's will not lose their tax exemptions ---unless they continue to fund political campaigns like we are seeing.
Instead, Proposition 8, in its entirety, reads..."Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California"
Proposition 8 is about putting discrimination into the state constitution. Discrimination against select individuals because of their sexual orientation.
If your problem is not with gay marriage, but only with children being taught about it. Why not vote no on proposition 8 and then put a new proposition forwards that bans the education of young children on gay marriage? It would be a perfect middle ground don't you think?
I think we have found our middle ground! We all agree gays and lesbians deserve equal rights and we all agree (even myself) that children shouldn't be taught about gay marriage.
So, we've got it. We can all vote no on prop 8 and then I will support and donate to a new proposition that bans the education of children about gay marriage.
Lets vote one issue at a time, the way its supposed to be.
Sincerely
I see what you mean and appreciate your points. I think we are definately getting closer to a middle ground.
However for me prop 8 speaks to the very definition of Marriage itself which extends beyond civil liberties. For me the definition is very significant in that it represents a covenant between one and one women.
So for me and many others like me there will need to be new propositions which make a greater distinction between civil liberties for same sex couples and the definition of marriage itself.
However I am not sure that the majority of Californians still hold to the traditional 'definition' as they did in the previous vote. So my traditional values and definition may be the minority vote now. We will see after the votes are tallied.
But either way in spite of our ideological differences we have agreed that gays should have equal civil liberties and that children should not be taught about gay marriage in the public schools. I think that is a step in the right direction.
I don't remember being taught about straight marriage in school.... why would they 'teach' about gay marriage? All they will say is that it is okay, and that is to protect the children that have gay parents. Kids are mean, they WILL make fun of and chastise children with gay parents, all this will do is try to prevent it.
Proposition 8 is NOT about public education. Proposition 8 is NOT about religious freedom. Proposition 8 is NOT about tax exemptions. If these were the concerns, then wouldn't Proposition 8 include language to address them?
Church's will not lose their tax exemptions ---unless they continue to fund political campaigns like we are seeing.
Instead, Proposition 8, in its entirety, reads..."Only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California"
Proposition 8 is about putting discrimination into the state constitution. Discrimination against select individuals because of their sexual orientation.
Of course these other issues are part of the measure, if not specifically spelled out in Prop 8. Even though you may not consider them to be part of the measue, they absolutely will be impacted as a byproduct of the legalization of gay marriage.
The lack of specificity concerning impacts doesn't mean that they won't exist.
But either way in spite of our ideological differences we have agreed that gays should have equal civil liberties and that children should not be taught about gay marriage in the public schools. I think that is a step in the right direction.
I couldn't be happier about ho this particular part of our conversation turned out. This is exacatly what I was hoping would happen hen I started this thread.
The fact you agree that gays and lesbians deserve equal rights is all that I can ask for. I don't expect you, nor should anyone, to compromise personal beliefs for that cause.
I am afraid, though, the only way gays and lesbians can reach equal rights is by being included in marriage laws. In the past, segregation under the law has only proven that by keeping things seperate it is impossible to have them equal. If there were some way to stop using the word marriage, I would be happy with that. Unfortunantly what the law has named it is marriage, and for that reason equality requires the use of that term. It is a shame, we should be open to calling eachother's relationship whatever we want. You can call mine a civil union (ill still call it marriage) and I can call your's orange-bananas (and youll still call it marriage).
In the end, though, the important thing is we both respect eachother and agree we all deserve equal protection under the law. For me that means more people vote no on 8. For you, it means exercising your right to vote yes.
The vote will happen, and one side will lose. My fear is that when it happens, the violence and hate we are seeing from both sides will be compounded and that is a crying shame.
But I must make the point to say, it was not gay and lesbian activists that created this proposition that has proven to be very devisive and in some ways counterproductive. It was extremists fueled by dislike for homosexuals. Not all people voting yes are of that type, but the ones who created the proposition are. In fact, the people who created the proposition also don't hire jews. It is a hate filled organization and it has accomplished its goal whether the proposition passes or not.
But we, as Californians, will hopefully rise above that when all is said and done.
I don't remember being taught about straight marriage in school.... why would they 'teach' about gay marriage? All they will say is that it is okay, and that is to protect the children that have gay parents. Kids are mean, they WILL make fun of and chastise children with gay parents, all this will do is try to prevent it.
I know what you mean about the cruel bullies that are in the schools. Kids are taught that being different is a good reason for taunting, teasing and beating up other kids. I did not disclose to anyone in school that I was gay, but I got teased and picked on for being on the honor roll, for my red hair and for living in a Mexican - Indian family. Taunting, teasing and bullying made me hate school not the education I got.
Gay marriage will not be discussed in schools without the parents involvement anymore so than heterosexual marriage, divorce of the same, family values/planning or sex ed.
Though why a parent would want their child to grow up uninformed just to have to learn it all from peers that do not know what they are talking about is beyond me. I do feel that it is up to the parents to decide what their child learns in school ant there are many things that parents should be discussing with their kids in the first place. The parent is the best judge as to wether their child is ready to learn about subjects like sex or marriage, gay or straight. My mom thought that children under ten should not attend marriages or funerals, that they were not mature enough to understand the impact or importance of those situations. That was the sixties and kids are way more advanced today.
Of course these other issues are part of the measure, if not specifically spelled out in Prop 8. Even though you may not consider them to be part of the measue, they absolutely will be impacted as a byproduct of the legalization of gay marriage.
The lack of specificity concerning impacts doesn't mean that they won't exist.
Again I will say this; the proponents and writers of Proposition 8 are the very same people that want to exclude gay marriage from the state constitution. Proposition 8 does not change the state laws to include teaching of gay marriage in schools. It does not make sense that they would both try to exclude the right to marry for gay people but also include a provision that if it does not pass, that children will be taught it in school. THINK ABOUT THAT FOR A WHILE. Gays and lesbians have not done anything to deserve being treated like second class citizens. What if you were told that you could not get married because you were not a christian or that your spouse had to be the same religion as yours? That would be just as unfair. Every one deserves the same right to marry the one they fell in love with. Not the one the people tell you that it is OK to.
Since some churches believe in marrying gay people.. Wouldn't the thing that limits religous beliefs be voting yes on prop 8 and not allowing other christian religions like the UCC to practice their religous sacrament of marriage the way they please?
I couldn't be happier about ho this particular part of our conversation turned out. This is exacatly what I was hoping would happen hen I started this thread.
The fact you agree that gays and lesbians deserve equal rights is all that I can ask for. I don't expect you, nor should anyone, to compromise personal beliefs for that cause.
Glad to hear it, really. I feel the way. Regardless of the fact that I hold conservatives views on many issues including marriage, I also feel very strongly that everyone deserves equal protection and rights under the law. That is why I responded to this thread. I really do want to see progress made in this area as one human being to another. It is just the right thing to do.
I do however have many friends who tend to see these issues as black and white - 'a no brainer.' And that is the mindset I am trying to challenge with my conservative friends. I think both sides need to look beyond the polar extremes and political partisan sound bites to consider the real issues from both sides of the isle.
That is another reason why I will probably vote for Obama this time around. I think he will get more accomplished working with 'both' parties. While I don't agree with all of his views I think his approach will be better for the country overall. But that is a discussion for another day. My conservative friends will probably hate me. LOL..
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I am afraid, though, the only way gays and lesbians can reach equal rights is by being included in marriage laws. In the past, segregation under the law has only proven that by keeping things seperate it is impossible to have them equal. If there were some way to stop using the word marriage, I would be happy with that. Unfortunantly what the law has named it is marriage, and for that reason equality requires the use of that term. It is a shame, we should be open to calling eachother's relationship whatever we want. You can call mine a civil union (ill still call it marriage) and I can call your's orange-bananas (and youll still call it marriage).
I am glad you said it! I was thinking the same thing. Whether Mulsim, Jew, Christian, Buhddist or Atheist we all have varied beliefs of what 'Marriage' is. As a Christian I have very clear definition of what Marriage is to me. It has social, spiritual, and legal significance. I cannot just simply redefine it. But obviously it will mean different things to different people in our diverse nation. So why not use other names or language as you mentioned? Hey, it could be Humpty Dumpty on the law books as long as everyone is treated equally.
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In the end, though, the important thing is we both respect eachother and agree we all deserve equal protection under the law. For me that means more people vote no on 8. For you, it means exercising your right to vote yes.
The vote will happen, and one side will lose. My fear is that when it happens, the violence and hate we are seeing from both sides will be compounded and that is a crying shame.
But I must make the point to say, it was not gay and lesbian activists that created this proposition that has proven to be very devisive and in some ways counterproductive. It was extremists fueled by dislike for homosexuals. Not all people voting yes are of that type, but the ones who created the proposition are. In fact, the people who created the proposition also don't hire jews. It is a hate filled organization and it has accomplished its goal whether the proposition passes or not.
Yes, I know there are most likely extremists on both sides who I do not agree with. And unfortunately some vote out of spite, etc... Even though we are about to have our first black president there is still racism in America. That is pretty sad. But we are still moving forward. And this will be a ground breaking year if Obama wins. Lets just hope and pray that he will not be martyred for the cause.
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But we, as Californians, will hopefully rise above that when all is said and done.
Sincerely,
No on proposition 8
Agreed, I would like to see Californians rise above all the partisanship and do the right thing for all of its citizen's regardless of race, religion, gender or sexual orientation.
Thanks for being willing to consider things from other people's perspectives as well. Lets try to encourage our circle of friends and associates to do the same thing. I am in this for the long hall.
Derek
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Whether Mulsim, Jew, Christian, Buhddist or Atheist we all have varied beliefs of what 'Marriage' is. As a Christian I have very clear definition of what Marriage is to me. It has social, spiritual, and legal significance. I cannot just simply redefine it. But obviously it will mean different things to different people in our diverse nation. So why not use other names or language as you mentioned? Hey, it could be Humpty Dumpty on the law books as long as everyone is treated equally. 
