Proposition 8 Supporters are not all bigots (Freedom: legal, license, bill)
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President of the California State School Board, Ted Mitchell, said: “Let me be clear, there is nothing in California state law that would require the teaching of marriage and that will not change. These ads are ridiculous and they are an insult to California’s voters.”
1st graders need to be concearned with the basic skills and do not need to be exposed to issues above their understanding
It seems to me that one issue above a first-grader's understanding that we should avoid would be the idea that some people can grow up to get married and others cannot, even if they want to. Afterall, first graders love things to be fair.
On the other hand, my experience with 6 year olds is that most think the word "married", no matter who it refers to, is EWWWWWWWW.
It seems to me that one issue above a first-grader's understanding that we should avoid would be the idea that some people can grow up to get married and others cannot, even if they want to. Afterall, first graders love things to be fair.
On the other hand, my experience with 6 year olds is that most think the word "married", no matter who it refers to, is EWWWWWWWW.
Good one bigcats, Kids are kids and should be allowed to enjoy their childhood and have fun and learn. I myself as a child was exposed to the turbulance of my Moms violent marriage and it made me grow up too soon. It was just fortunate that I was intelligent and mature for my age. Leave all the serious stuff to the adults or at least wait till kids are mature enough to handle it. That is what the parents is for, isn't it? Marriage, kissing and even the opposite sex are EWWWWWW to most kids. My mom did not let us attend weddings or funerals till we were over 10. She did some things right.
I tried to rep you, but CD said I could not give you more reps yet.
I am not going to read this entire thread because it's too long. However, as someone who isn't homophobic in the least, I have no idea what I will vote for. For me, the issue here is the fact that Marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the Government. There is no way to remove Religion from this argument because we're in fact talking about something that is in fact religious. Since this is a matter of religion, the beliefs of the religion have to be followed, and I have never heard of a bible (or equivalent) that says that marriage is between anything other than a man and a woman. It is what it is. The bible is not the constitution, you can't amend it to suit your needs. I mean if we're going to start changing the words of the bible, personally I'd like to start with that whole fornication is wrong thing. After all, that's what I seem to be having the most problems with . Anyway to suggest or to imply it is wrong, is offensive. As open as I am to all lifestyles, as much as I hate judgemental people and as much I need prayer myself (there are no gold stars by my name in heaven, trust). As a christian, I can't vote against the bible. I recognize that Gay people should have equal protection under the law, but why disrespect the bible.
In essence, anyone who believes that marriage should be altered to include same sex couples is basically saying the bible is wrong. There is no way around that and as much as I hate the over zealous right wing christians who think everyone is going to hell but them, I have to agree with them when they say that it really is an assault on the Sanctity of Marriage. I also recognize that Heteros haven't exactly upheld the Sanctity of Marriage either.
Anyway, the conflict comes in with the fact that I believe everyone deserves equal rights. Personally, I thought that the Domestic Partnership would have settled this. After all, if the Gay Community is fighting for equal rights under the law, Domestic Partnership would've provided this without assaulting Religious beliefs. IMO, this really is the happy medium. Anyway, the point of my post is just to agree with the OP when she says that Prop 8 supporters aren't all bigots. Some of us just really struggle with the Religious aspect of Same Sex marriage.
I am not going to read this entire thread because it's too long. However, as someone who isn't homophobic in the least, I have no idea what I will vote for. For me, the issue here is the fact that Marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the Government. There is no way to remove Religion from this argument because we're in fact talking about something that is in fact religious. Since this is a matter of religion, the beliefs of the religion have to be followed, and I have never heard of a bible (or equivalent) that says that marriage is between anything other than a man and a woman. It is what it is. The bible is not the constitution, you can't amend it to suit your needs. I mean if we're going to start changing the words of the bible, personally I'd like to start with that whole fornication is wrong thing. After all, that's what I seem to be having the most problems with . Anyway to suggest or to imply it is wrong, is offensive. As open as I am to all lifestyles, as much as I hate judgemental people and as much I need prayer myself (there are no gold stars by my name in heaven, trust). As a christian, I can't vote against the bible. I recognize that Gay people should have equal protection under the law, but why disrespect the bible.
In essence, anyone who believes that marriage should be altered to include same sex couples is basically saying the bible is wrong. There is no way around that and as much as I hate the over zealous right wing christians who think everyone is going to hell but them, I have to agree with them when they say that it really is an assault on the Sanctity of Marriage. I also recognize that Heteros haven't exactly upheld the Sanctity of Marriage either.
Anyway, the conflict comes in with the fact that I believe everyone deserves equal rights. Personally, I thought that the Domestic Partnership would have settled this. After all, if the Gay Community is fighting for equal rights under the law, Domestic Partnership would've provided this without assaulting Religious beliefs. IMO, this really is the happy medium. Anyway, the point of my post is just to agree with the OP when she says that Prop 8 supporters aren't all bigots. Some of us just really struggle with the Religious aspect of Same Sex marriage.
Lovelyinla, marriage is not just a religious ceremony, there are many people that for one may not be Christian or they may not believe in the bible or in god. Marriage is not denied them, so why should it denied to gays and lesbians. Domestic partnership does not provide for many rights that marriage provides, so domestic partners still have to have legal documents to preserve their property and for other reasons. Those documents and the lawyer to assure they are legal are expensive and not fair when you consider that married people do not have to go through that expense and trouble. Even with documents properly done, a domestic partner that loses his or her spouse, is subject to tax's and other laws that prohibits keeping ones property due to the excessive costs. And you are right, heterosexuals have already made a mockery of marriage. Why is it that all of you Christians that are so worried about the sanctity of marriage, started a proposition to make divorce illegal because that is really what is wrong with the marriages of heterosexuals and the insult to the bible at the same time. Why should you be the only ones to have and to hold, to love and to cherish, till death do us part, only to change your mind because you have irreconcilable differences. I and my partner have been together for 29 years, why should we have to settle for domestic partnership when the straights keep screwing up one marriage after another. There should be a limit to how often you can get married and divorced. But, really, marriage is a civil arrangement between two people that has to meet the qualifications of government before even a church can make it legal. Domestic partnership is not equal to marriage in many ways, so it is not even separate but equal. I want the real thing, not a half baked version that can not hold water. I believe that since church's are tax exempt, they should keep out of governments jurisdiction. Remember about separation of church and state? I say that we should start taxing church's, that would help our economy. By the way, I have read every post in this thread. If the bible cannot be amended then what is the New Testament, or the Mormon bible even. 2000 years ago when the bible was written, we were still sure that the earth was the center of the solar system and that it was flat.
I am not going to read this entire thread because it's too long. However, as someone who isn't homophobic in the least, I have no idea what I will vote for. For me, the issue here is the fact that Marriage is a religious ceremony that is recognized by the Government. There is no way to remove Religion from this argument because we're in fact talking about something that is in fact religious. Since this is a matter of religion, the beliefs of the religion have to be followed, and I have never heard of a bible (or equivalent) that says that marriage is between anything other than a man and a woman. It is what it is. The bible is not the constitution, you can't amend it to suit your needs. I mean if we're going to start changing the words of the bible, personally I'd like to start with that whole fornication is wrong thing. After all, that's what I seem to be having the most problems with . Anyway to suggest or to imply it is wrong, is offensive. As open as I am to all lifestyles, as much as I hate judgemental people and as much I need prayer myself (there are no gold stars by my name in heaven, trust). As a christian, I can't vote against the bible. I recognize that Gay people should have equal protection under the law, but why disrespect the bible.
In essence, anyone who believes that marriage should be altered to include same sex couples is basically saying the bible is wrong. There is no way around that and as much as I hate the over zealous right wing christians who think everyone is going to hell but them, I have to agree with them when they say that it really is an assault on the Sanctity of Marriage. I also recognize that Heteros haven't exactly upheld the Sanctity of Marriage either.
Anyway, the conflict comes in with the fact that I believe everyone deserves equal rights. Personally, I thought that the Domestic Partnership would have settled this. After all, if the Gay Community is fighting for equal rights under the law, Domestic Partnership would've provided this without assaulting Religious beliefs. IMO, this really is the happy medium. Anyway, the point of my post is just to agree with the OP when she says that Prop 8 supporters aren't all bigots. Some of us just really struggle with the Religious aspect of Same Sex marriage.
I am not going to attack you, or the bible. I think both are very respectable and important. I think your happiness and religion are honorable things to defend.
That is what I am trying to do, defend my happiness and right to marry.
We have way more in common than we do differences. We both believe in God, we believe he made us in his image the way we are. We don't believe God made any mistakes and I certainly dont think he made a mistake when he made me. Or you.
I am just so happy that he has allowed the love of my life and I the right to get married in multiple countries accross the world and in 3 great states of America. It is a right I thank him for every day. I am so deeply in love that I cannot help bu 'feel' God has a hand in it somewhere. Different churches view this differently. There are plenty of churches marrying same sex couples right now and come have ministers who are in same sex marriages. The bible issue is not cut and dry and if you ask scholars, many will defend the differences in what the bible is talking about and what is currently understood about homosexuality.
With that being said. I agree, if there were a middle ground where somehow all of the rights of marriage could be conveyed without using the word, Id be all for it.
Unfortunantly, thats not possible. The best step TOWARDS that is a no vote on 8, though. Prop 8 is a constitutional ammendment, not a comment on our religous beliefs. It is a huge deal and shouldn't be taken lightly. I urge anyone with doubts to ask themselves "Should I ammend the constitution if Im not even close to sure its the right thing to do?"
We will come together, and its unfortunant we have been divided by an issue like this.
Just remember, there are lots of churches that marry gay people. The verdict isn't in. A yes vote on 8 takes the right of those Christians to celebrate their own religous beliefs away. A no vote does not take any church's rights away. Hopefully, with the doubt in your mind, andknowing which vote would take rights AWAY and ammend the constitution, as you are voting on Nov. 4th you will remember what we've talked about.
I PRAY that when you vote, you will vote no on prop 8 and save my marriage. Because I promise, with all my heart, I would do the same for you. Standing up for those hated by society is something Jesus preached about. He didn't hang out with good Jewish Rabiis and the pious.
"'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.' " Matthew 25:40
Doing what is fair and just. All are equal under the laws. Taking care of those society casts away. Loving everyone for who they are. Those are good Christian principles.
A no vote on 8 is a vote to preserve the rights of few, despite the disapproval of many.
I'd like to thank everyone who participated in this conversation civilly.
I myself have enjoyed the opportunity to talk with some people about this very important issue.
I would like the leave with the last comments I made. I will take the teachings to heart as well and stop worrying about this. I know that just as God clothes and feeds the flowers and birds he will also take care of my husband and I.....and our marriage.
I have found myself at edge the past few weeks, worrying about people taking away my marriage when that effort could be put towards enjoying the time I can spend with the love of my life. So, I will do that.
Thanks again to everyone and I hope the conversation has helped at least one voter decide to do the right thing.
Dragonslayer: Of course I'm aware that people of other religions marry, that's why I said the Bible or eqivalent. I can only see Marriage and an union ordained by your God. Also, again it is offensive to me when you say my bible is wrong. The New Testaments is not an admendment to the Old, the Old Testament lays the foundation and the New Testament is more of how it applies to our lives (that's an extremely simple way to look at it) but no it's not an admendment. I want you to think about what you're saying: you want me to change what has been sacred and true for 2000 years in order to accommodate you. Can you see how offensive that is? However, I can not comment on other religions as I am not knowledgeable about them.
I for one believe that people are born gay (actually I believe in the Kinsey scale which states that most people have a little gay in them, some just more so than others). So yes, I believe you're created in his image, and you are as you should be. Which is why I also believe that Gays should have the same rights as married people, so I would vote to update DP's to increase the rights in a heartbeat. So, I think the real argument here is not the fact that the people who are for Prop 8 are against Gay unions, we just want to know why do you have to call it a marriage? Think about it, if DP's were given all the rights of Marriage, would you be satisfied?
Caldje: your post is why I'm conflicted about it. On the one hand, I feel as if I need to defend my beliefs and on the other hand I have to say that I agree with you.
I respect both of your opinions and it's not my intention to be offensive but I just wanted to share my opinions on this.
Dragonslayer: Of course I'm aware that people of other religions marry, that's why I said the Bible or eqivalent. I can only see Marriage and an union ordained by your God. Also, again it is offensive to me when you say my bible is wrong. The New Testaments is not an admendment to the Old, the Old Testament lays the foundation and the New Testament is more of how it applies to our lives (that's an extremely simple way to look at it) but no it's not an admendment. I want you to think about what you're saying: you want me to change what has been sacred and true for 2000 years in order to accommodate you. Can you see how offensive that is? However, I can not comment on other religions as I am not knowledgeable about them.
I for one believe that people are born gay (actually I believe in the Kinsey scale which states that most people have a little gay in them, some just more so than others). So yes, I believe you're created in his image, and you are as you should be. Which is why I also believe that Gays should have the same rights as married people, so I would vote to update DP's to increase the rights in a heartbeat. So, I think the real argument here is not the fact that the people who are for Prop 8 are against Gay unions, we just want to know why do you have to call it a marriage? Think about it, if DP's were given all the rights of Marriage, would you be satisfied?
Caldje: your post is why I'm conflicted about it. On the one hand, I feel as if I need to defend my beliefs and on the other hand I have to say that I agree with you.
I respect both of your opinions and it's not my intention to be offensive but I just wanted to share my opinions on this.
No, I cannot see how anything I said was offensive. I do not believe in the bible, why should I have to follow its rules because others want to force them on me. That is not fair. If you want to follow your bible, I respect you for your convictions, but DO NOT FORCE THEM ON ME. I never called your bible wrong, just that it is not my belief. I thought that this country was founded on Freedom of religion. I am free to believe in what ever god I want to or to not believe. I happen to believe in Mother Earth.
No, I cannot see how anything I said was offensive. I do not believe in the bible, why should I have to follow its rules because others want to force them on me. That is not fair. If you want to follow your bible, I respect you for your convictions, but DO NOT FORCE THEM ON ME. I never called your bible wrong, just that it is not my belief. I thought that this country was founded on Freedom of religion. I am free to believe in what ever god I want to or to not believe. I happen to believe in Mother Earth.
I believe most Americans feel exactly as you The Church has no right to be involved in the government [a sad development President Bush promoted]. I am Catholic & do not impose my beliefs within the constitutional separation from the state.
LovelyinLa - how would you like it if the rosary was prayed in public school? Or a crucifix on the wall next to the flag? We live in America not the Church. That is basic constitutional law that every American was taught
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. Anyway to suggest or to imply it is wrong, is offensive. As open as I am to all lifestyles, as much as I hate judgemental people and as much I need prayer myself (there are no gold stars by my name in heaven, trust). As a christian, I can't vote against the bible. I recognize that Gay people should have equal protection under the law, but why disrespect the bible. 
The Church has no right to be involved in the government [a sad development President Bush promoted]. I am Catholic & do not impose my beliefs within the constitutional separation from the state. 
