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Old 10-29-2008, 11:50 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 538,028 times
Reputation: 109

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Quote:
Originally Posted by JetJockey View Post
I am voting no. Equality for some is not equality for all. Separate but equal was tried during the civil rights movement and that wasn't fair either. Religion gave up marriage a long time ago and frankly have no rights to that word. Marriage was also there LONG before Christianity, and regardless of what it's called it's STILL MARRIAGE and even if everyone gets civil unioned, they will still tell everyone they're married. Besides, I'd like to see you tell my atheist grandparents that they have to give up their 50 year old marriage because of the Church... trust me, colorful words will be used


So... no on 8
I swear, i really wish you all had the mental ability to extrapolate your "equality for some" beliefs to how the courts treated religious freedom with their rulings. Wow...I have just come to the pointless conclusion that most of you people are just clueless. Atlas Shrugged.

 
Old 10-29-2008, 11:51 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 538,028 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonarrat View Post
I am voting no:

1) Equality under the law is guaranteed.
2) Marriage ceased being a religious institution a long time ago. Sorry, Christians. If you want to stop it, then draft a proposition to discontinue all state marriages.
3) The Yes on 8 campaign is headed by a who's who of shady characters and bigots, who will stop at nothing to distort the truth and lie in order to hide their prejudicial, right-leaning agenda.
4) This is California. FFS, you've got forty-nine other states. If gays offend you so much, choose another one. California is not for you.
You are in for a rude awakening on Tuesday. Where will you move when the people vote FOR Religious Freedom?
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:07 PM
 
2,022 posts, read 2,699,025 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
I swear, i really wish you all had the mental ability to extrapolate your "equality for some" beliefs to how the courts treated religious freedom with their rulings. Wow...I have just come to the pointless conclusion that most of you people are just clueless. Atlas Shrugged.
Let's talk about religious freedom for a second. Up until the civil rights movement, the Mormon church considered black people to be the "mark of Cain." Then, they were in danger of losing their tax exempt status and finally had an "edict from God" telling them that black people were not, in fact, evil. Okay, so should they have been allowed to retain their tax exempt status while discriminating against, and some might say actively hating, black people? There's a certain point where your religious freedoms have to end and my civil rights have to begin. To infer that your right to religion is greater than my right to equality is wrong on so many levels. In some ways you're even saying that your right to religion is greater than my right to religion. Unitarian Universalists support gay marriage. Just because your particular sect of Christianity doesn't support gay marriage, doesn't mean that my sect feels the same way. As far as I can tell, in every post you have written you seem to hold YOUR rights in higher esteem than everyone else's rights.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:16 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 538,028 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangodoodles View Post
Let's talk about religious freedom for a second. Up until the civil rights movement, the Mormon church considered black people to be the "mark of Cain." Then, they were in danger of losing their tax exempt status and finally had an "edict from God" telling them that black people were not, in fact, evil. Okay, so should they have been allowed to retain their tax exempt status while discriminating against, and some might say actively hating, black people? There's a certain point where your religious freedoms have to end and my civil rights have to begin. To infer that your right to religion is greater than my right to equality is wrong on so many levels. In some ways you're even saying that your right to religion is greater than my right to religion. Unitarian Universalists support gay marriage. Just because your particular sect of Christianity doesn't support gay marriage, doesn't mean that my sect feels the same way. As far as I can tell, in every post you have written you seem to hold YOUR rights in higher esteem than everyone else's rights.
Your certain point is to overpower your "equality" against my "religious freedom". It is that self important ideology that is the basis of this war. Your equality is more important than my equality. Therefore, you are no different than the black hating mormons you spoke of. Your goal is to co-opt traditional religion at every turn. Your angst against traditional religion is obvious and your "Universalist sect" also sounds like a front whose goal is simply to destroy traditional religion. I have nothing against your beliefs at all, you can be a Universalist whatever and a gay rights activist, but I draw a line when you attempt to co-opt my beliefs and overrule my freedoms. I believe in compromise and if your were truly a "Universalist" like you espouse, you would as well.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:19 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
6,835 posts, read 16,763,003 times
Reputation: 2561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
You are in for a rude awakening on Tuesday. Where will you move when the people vote FOR Religious Freedom?
How does Prop 8 relate to your religious freedom? Does it affect your ability to marry? No. Does it affect your rights? No. Is your right to marriage tainted now that the Supreme Court ruled that gays could marry as well? If so, you've got some shaky beliefs and I pity you.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 538,028 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonarrat View Post
How does Prop 8 relate to your religious freedom? Does it affect your ability to marry? No. Does it affect your rights? No. Is your right to marriage tainted now that the Supreme Court ruled that gays could marry as well? If so, you've got some shaky beliefs and I pity you.
This is your belief...which does not make it fact. Your views are so distorted that you represent everything I see wrong with America today. Try re-reading the small book I have written on all the threads and maybe...just maybe...you will start to understand how wrong it is to placate the demands of one side at the expense of the religious freedom of the other. You have an agenda and you have no desire to respect anyone who opposes your will. That is more evil than anything the Mormon church has condoned.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:29 PM
 
2,022 posts, read 2,699,025 times
Reputation: 584
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
Your certain point is to overpower your "equality" against my "religious freedom". It is that self important ideology that is the basis of this war. Your equality is more important than my equality. Therefore, you are no different than the black hating mormons you spoke of. Your goal is to co-opt traditional religion at every turn. Your angst against traditional religion is obvious and your "Universalist sect" also sounds like a front whose goal is simply to destroy traditional religion. I have nothing against your beliefs at all, you can be a Universalist whatever and a gay rights activist, but I draw a line when you attempt to co-opt my beliefs and overrule my freedoms. I believe in compromise and if your were truly a "Universalist" like you espouse, you would as well.
See, it's posts like this that make me believe you might be a bit of a religious zealot, but no matter. Clearly you've decided that we've "declared war on you" (another statement to back up my religious zealot assertion) and that's that. Nothing we say is going to change how you feel about this. That's fine, vote yes on prop 8 and have a nice day. I was simply asking how you could justify denying someone else rights just because those rights don't gel with what your Bible says. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:31 PM
 
Location: San Jose, CA
6,835 posts, read 16,763,003 times
Reputation: 2561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zapparulez View Post
This is your belief...which does not make it fact. Your views are so distorted that you represent everything I see wrong with America today. Try re-reading the small book I have written on all the threads and maybe...just maybe...you will start to understand how wrong it is to placate the demands of one side at the expense of the religious freedom of the other. You have an agenda and you have no desire to respect anyone who opposes your will. That is more evil than anything the Mormon church has condoned.
You've done nothing but try to write things into Prop 8 that aren't there, aren't true, and aren't relevant to the discussion, in order to make it fit your particular view. That is the very definition of debating with an agenda. And you attack me for doing nothing more than deflating your baseless arguments. Who's being victimized here? If you have your way, it will be ME and hundreds of thousands like me, and you will have been part of it because you wanted to express your "religious freedom." Well, congratulations. You truly deserve a gold star for putting yourself over everyone else, even when it wouldn't hurt you in the slightest to let us have our rights.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:43 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 538,028 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by tangodoodles View Post
See, it's posts like this that make me believe you might be a bit of a religious zealot, but no matter. Clearly you've decided that we've "declared war on you" (another statement to back up my religious zealot assertion) and that's that. Nothing we say is going to change how you feel about this. That's fine, vote yes on prop 8 and have a nice day. I was simply asking how you could justify denying someone else rights just because those rights don't gel with what your Bible says. But hey, whatever helps you sleep at night.
If you only knew how little I attend church. I do believe that my faith with God is a personal one and I read the Bible, but church is always a secondary need for me spiritually. Does that sound like a religious zealot? My point is, anyone who disagrees with you will sound like a zealot because you are blind by your hatred of traditional religion period. You are even willing to negate the constitutional rights of others to accomplish your agenda. When I say "declared war", I say it not in the way your narrow mind interprets it. This is not a war over gay marriage...this is a war over the Constitution and the ever expanding power and influence of the State. Your contempt for religion makes you think there is nothing wrong with the state invading and eroding the religious freedoms of "evil" Christian zealots, while I see wrong in both that and with the State's current involvement in marriage. If I am a zealot, it is FOR FREEDOM that I am zealous. FREEDOM FOR ALL. I support gays right to be happy, but not at the expense of others' right to religious freedom. The way to end this conflict is to end STATE INVOLVEMENT in marriage. Why is it so hard for you to wrap your mind around this idea? Why must everything come back to religious extremism and "racial" equality for gays? I am tired of the same old slogans and attacks on peoples' faith. Look at the bigger picture and at least attempt to have respect for the rights of ALL.
 
Old 10-29-2008, 12:49 PM
 
Location: Sacramento
259 posts, read 538,028 times
Reputation: 109
Quote:
Originally Posted by sonarrat View Post
You've done nothing but try to write things into Prop 8 that aren't there, aren't true, and aren't relevant to the discussion, in order to make it fit your particular view. That is the very definition of debating with an agenda. And you attack me for doing nothing more than deflating your baseless arguments. Who's being victimized here? If you have your way, it will be ME and hundreds of thousands like me, and you will have been part of it because you wanted to express your "religious freedom." Well, congratulations. You truly deserve a gold star for putting yourself over everyone else, even when it wouldn't hurt you in the slightest to let us have our rights.
I want to pass Prop 8 to preserve My rights. That is obviously my first concern and of course, you want to preserve Your rights. The difference between you and me is that I want to pass Prop 8 and then work to reconcile the basic conflict between our beliefs. Currently, our rights conflict and the only way to resolve that(other than supressing each others rights) will be to find a compromise. You have to think about how can you have what you want while respecting our religious freedoms? You have to put into context that marriage has been a religious affair for thousands of years longer than it has been a state issue. So how can you have gay "unions" with all the same rights as a traditional marriage under "state law"? The answer is so simple that I fail to understand why no one is willing to consider it. You activists are adept at clouding the issue to support your agenda...I have no agenda other than protecting the rights of both sides. Of course, passing Prop 8 would immediately protect my rights but I genuinely want to reconcile the conflicts and preserve the rights for BOTH sides. Which is wholly opposite of your goals by defeating Prop 8. How many different ways do I need to say the same thing?
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