The OFFICIAL Proposition 8 Thread: READ HERE FIRST (Montclair: taxes, homeless)

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

No, a majority of the Yes on 8 people don't even want civil unions.

I have to disagree with this statement. Cant find any polls on this but the Yes on 8 website clearly states that Prop 8 will not affect any of the rights given under domestic partnerships.

I doubt you'll find any gay activists out there shouting, "Give me a civil union, not a marriage!" Whatever dude, we'll just agree to disagree on this one.

Well, this gay man is certainly not sure on the issue yet. Perhaps I wont know until Im in the voting booth. And I dont necessarily disagree with you either.

No matter what, this isnt over. Itll never be until marriage and government are separated.

[tangodoodles]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

I have to disagree with this statement. Cant find any polls on this but the Yes on 8 website clearly states that Prop 8 will not affect any of the rights given under domestic partnerships.

Well, this gay man is certainly not sure on the issue yet. Perhaps I wont know until Im in the voting booth. And I dont necessarily disagree with you either.

No matter what, this isnt over. Itll never be until marriage and government are separated.

Well, my gay cousin and his partner are sure on the issue. It's a secular issue to them, it's a secular issue to me. And frankly, I come from an Irish Catholic family that reproduced heavily, a bunch of them think homosexuality is immoral any way you slice it and I know plenty of people who think gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt or raise children. They just don't like gay people period. Those people are voting Yes. They don't differentiate. They see an opportunity to remove the rights of gay people and even though it doesn't go far enough in their opinions they'll take it.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

Well, my gay cousin and his partner are sure on the issue. It's a secular issue to them, it's a secular issue to me. And frankly, I come from an Irish Catholic family that reproduced heavily, a bunch of them think homosexuality is immoral any way you slice it and I know plenty of people who think gay people shouldn't be allowed to adopt or raise children. They just don't like gay people period. Those people are voting Yes. They don't differentiate. They see an opportunity to remove the rights of gay people and even though it doesn't go far enough in their opinions they'll take it.

Obviously its unfortunate some still feel that way. At the same time, I generally dont think that is the mindset of most people nowadays.

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by Zapparulez

You are in for a rude awakening on Tuesday. Where will you move when the people vote FOR Religious Freedom?

I think you're a little fuzzy on the meaning of that amendment... "Freedom of Religion" means YOU are free to practice whatever religion you choose, just as I am free to practice my own (or none at all). That doesn't mean you can impose your beliefs on others, especially at the expense of another person's rights - in fact, it is just the opposite, as our constitution also states that ALL shall have equal rights. And why are you ignoring other religious beliefs? I am a Reform Jew, and we strongly support gay marriage, and believe that gays & lesbians should be able to participate fully in the Temple. So by your logic, my religious freedom would be trampled on if Prop 8 passes. Guess you think yours is the only religion, or that your beliefs are somehow more important than others. Besides, how exactly would it infringe on your religion? Churches & Temples will still be free to marry or not marry whomever they please, since religious ceremonies are separate from civil ceremonies. Let people get married in city hall, gay-friendly churches/temples, homes, etc., and nobody will be imposing on your precious religious beliefs. Seems simple enough to me.

Oh well, Prop 8 is steadily losing in the polls, so I'm not all that worried - since propositions that start behind almost always end up even farther behind.

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

Obviously its unfortunate some still feel that way. At the same time, I generally dont think that is the mindset of most people nowadays.

It's mostly the older generations who are still stuck in that mind-set, and the younger folks generally don't care. I work with children (of various ages), and they mostly think this is a stupid and pointless debate... so once they're of voting age, and the older generations start to fade away, this will be a non-issue.

[tangodoodles]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

It's mostly the older generations who are still stuck in that mind-set, and the younger folks generally don't care. I work with children (of various ages), and they mostly think this is a stupid and pointless debate... so once they're of voting age, and the older generations start to fade away, this will be a non-issue.

I agree completely. That's why I think this 2008 vote will end up differently than the 2000 vote. It's been eight years and people who've grown up not caring about sexuality are of voting age now.

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

Obviously its unfortunate some still feel that way. At the same time, I generally dont think that is the mindset of most people nowadays.

it's the mindset of older ppl. if you're younger (i'm guessing 18 by your screen name), you may not see it as much. just like most other prejudices, the older generations tend to have more of it. honestly, i don't see how any self respecting gay person can vote FOR it. It's like a jew voting for hitler.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by wehotex

it's the mindset of older ppl. if you're younger (i'm guessing 18 by your screen name), you may not see it as much. just like most other prejudices, the older generations tend to have more of it. honestly, i don't see how any self respecting gay person can vote FOR it. It's like a jew voting for hitler.

Definitely not 18. LOL

And as far a Jew voting for Hitler, You dont think that just a tad extreme? I mean, just a bit? Seriously, Hitler killed 6 Million Jews in cold blood. Likening the Yes on 8 Campaign to that is well, horrible, not to mention, incredibly unfair.

I have come to realize that God is more important than my sexual orientation and now grapple with a vote that pits one aspect of myself against another.

I thought I made peace with this a long time ago, but I guess not.

[Rhenzanite]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

I think you're a little fuzzy on the meaning of that amendment... "Freedom of Religion" means YOU are free to practice whatever religion you choose, just as I am free to practice my own (or none at all). That doesn't mean you can impose your beliefs on others, especially at the expense of another person's rights - in fact, it is just the opposite, as our constitution also states that ALL shall have equal rights. And why are you ignoring other religious beliefs? I am a Reform Jew, and we strongly support gay marriage, and believe that gays & lesbians should be able to participate fully in the Temple. So by your logic, my religious freedom would be trampled on if Prop 8 passes. Guess you think yours is the only religion, or that your beliefs are somehow more important than others. Besides, how exactly would it infringe on your religion? Churches & Temples will still be free to marry or not marry whomever they please, since religious ceremonies are separate from civil ceremonies. Let people get married in city hall, gay-friendly churches/temples, homes, etc., and nobody will be imposing on your precious religious beliefs. Seems simple enough to me.

Oh well, Prop 8 is steadily losing in the polls, so I'm not all that worried - since propositions that start behind almost always end up even farther behind.

I'd have to say that was one of the better, well thought out arguments I've seen so far. Religions feel that their g-d is the only one and that others don't matter (i.e. Christians following 'the truth', as if everything else is a lie). Unfortunately, Christians and Catholics are the most prominent in our country so apparently 'their god could kick your gods ass' or so they say.... they disregard other religions (or lack there-of in my case) and think that just theirs is included in the freedom of religion pact, others simply don't count. This is in no way a Christian bashing post, I just happen to have more experience with that particular religion, you could easily replace the word Christian with any number of religions.

[t0bx]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

It's mostly the older generations who are still stuck in that mind-set, and the younger folks generally don't care. I work with children (of various ages), and they mostly think this is a stupid and pointless debate... so once they're of voting age, and the older generations start to fade away, this will be a non-issue.

Wasn't it this older (greatest) generation that is just "fading" that made all these sacrifices so that you have the freedom to just just sit in your comfy home and broadcast your wisdom across the internet. Ya, the world will be a better place when they are gone. What have we sacrificed?

It is amazing the disrespect these new generations have towards earlier generations after what they have sacrificed. Sure they have different mind sets but to think the world will be a better place when they die off.