The OFFICIAL Proposition 8 Thread: READ HERE FIRST (San Francisco, Montclair: university, pros and cons)

[Joe_Ryder]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

I am glad its over.

Im also pleased that Yes on 8 has prevailed.

This is far from over. There are undoubtedly going to be legal challenges and we might find ourselves faced with yet another referendum in the future.

As an aside, the most beautiful irony of the vote count to me was that the Bay Area, despite overwhelmingly voting against Prop 8, still delivered 886,000 Yes votes.

This is interesting. You and I are polar opposites who only agree on one thing (we like Oakland) that everyone else seems to disagree on. I find it odd that I, an atheist conservative voted against constitutional discrimination and you, a liberal gay, supported it. I was raised and educated in the Catholic church so I know very well what a powerful influence the church can be.

I actually don't approve of homosexuality but voted in favor of gay marriage simply because I oppose any sort of discrimination.

I do applaud you for voting for what you see as the right thing though I disagree.

This was actually the toughest decision on the whole ballot for me because of the two conflicting ideas in me. Though I'm against homosexuality not for religious reasons but more a personal choice much like wearing a motorcycle helmet, I feel it's a personal choice just like the choice to worship or not worship the deity of choice. I'd prefer everyone wear a helmet and be straight but I don't want the state dictating either. Though I've worn a helmet while riding for well over 30 years by choice, I have a real problem with the state telling me I have to. I'm sure this one was and still is tearing a hole in your gut.

I've always said to wear a helmet because it's a good idea, not because you were forced to. I think you should date girls because they are much more attractive than men (usually) but I'll have no hand in forcing you. If you like men, it's your life to live, not mine.

Like you said, at least it's over. For both of us, it's a bittersweet victory or loss depending on how you look at it.

[Mika>Kimi]

Originally Posted by gizmo980

I have read the OT - in Hebrew AND English - and there's nothing clear about it... which is why I choose to follow my own moral values, not those of an ancient novel.

Really? I have read it in Hebrew AND Greek and nothing can actually be clearer. I would be happy to debate that with you any day. Fine, if you do not believe it is one thing but to say that it is unclear on the issue must be one of the dumbest things I heard in a long time

[krudmonk]

Originally Posted by Mika>Kimi

Really? I have read it in Hebrew AND Greek and nothing can actually be clearer. I would be happy to debate that with you any day. Fine, if you do not believe it is one thing but to say that it is unclear on the issue must be one of the dumbest things I heard in a long time

How clear is it on slavery, female submission, etc?

[wehotex]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

I'm sorry, it's nothing personal, but I am so grossed out that a gay person actually voted against gay rights. If there was a little vomit icon I could use, I would.

exactly, that f*g has no pride in himself.

[CESpeed]

Originally Posted by sav858

What proposition was that? Because the two previous ones in 2005 and 2006 were both defeated. If you make a claim like that please back it up with some evidence.

Alright let's keep it real. Here's the link for Substitute Parenthood. Planned Parenthood - Laws Requiring Mandatory Parental Involvement for Minors' Abortion

Please note it says the law in Califonia was injoined. So the law actually exists, but cannot be enforced thanks to Substitute Parenthood.

[LexusNexus]

Originally Posted by Joe_Ryder

This is interesting. You and I are polar opposites who only agree on one thing (we like Oakland) that everyone else seems to disagree on. I find it odd that I, an atheist conservative voted against constitutional discrimination and you, a liberal gay, supported it. I was raised and educated in the Catholic church so I know very well what a powerful influence the church can be.

I actually don't approve of homosexuality but voted in favor of gay marriage simply because I oppose any sort of discrimination.

I do applaud you for voting for what you see as the right thing though I disagree.

This was actually the toughest decision on the whole ballot for me because of the two conflicting ideas in me. Though I'm against homosexuality not for religious reasons but more a personal choice much like wearing a motorcycle helmet, I feel it's a personal choice just like the choice to worship or not worship the deity of choice. I'd prefer everyone wear a helmet and be straight but I don't want the state dictating either. Though I've worn a helmet while riding for well over 30 years by choice, I have a real problem with the state telling me I have to. I'm sure this one was and still is tearing a hole in your gut.

I've always said to wear a helmet because it's a good idea, not because you were forced to. I think you should date girls because they are much more attractive than men (usually) but I'll have no hand in forcing you. If you like men, it's your life to live, not mine.

Like you said, at least it's over. For both of us, it's a bittersweet victory or loss depending on how you look at it.

You say you are an atheist conservative and oppose any kind of discrimination, how did you vote on affirmative action 11 years ago and why? If you didn't vote, why not?

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by krudmonk

How clear is it on slavery, female submission, etc?

Much more clear than it is on homosexuality... but of course the religious zealots (of which I am obviously not) tend to ignore those passages, and any other that doesn't suit them.

[CESpeed]

....why all Gay issues result in Gay education? This is why I voted YES on Prop 8. Gay people simply asked for equality, I would have voted NO, but everytime Gays get a right, we must then be educated about Gay life. When the ban on interracial marriage was reversed, no one taught interracial marriage in schools. Why do we have Gay tolerance classes? There are no tolerance classes for other groups.

I've said before and I'll say it again, if Gay Rights and Equality didn't result in Gays further forcing forcing their lifestyle down the throats of people who don't agree with it, I would be way more supportive.

[gizmo980]

Originally Posted by Mika>Kimi

Really? I have read it in Hebrew AND Greek and nothing can actually be clearer. I would be happy to debate that with you any day. Fine, if you do not believe it is one thing but to say that it is unclear on the issue must be one of the dumbest things I heard in a long time

Do you know how many languages the Bible has been translated in over the last 3000+ years? And while this isn't the place for a religious debate, I could go over the "homosexual passages" with you, and point out exactly how it can be misinterpreted... either way, following an ancient text word for word is the dumbest thing I've ever heard, especially when you only follow the words of your choice.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by wehotex

exactly, that f*g has no pride in himself.

Actually there are things that are worthy of pride more so than one's sexuality.