The OFFICIAL Proposition 8 Thread: READ HERE FIRST (Montclair, Auburn: shops, authority)

[izzy]

Here is a link to one example of...what's the big deal? This was in a kindergarden class...not a sex education class that I would have to approve...but a tolerance class...which needs approval from no parent.

California Elementary School Comes Under Prop. 8 Fire *|*News | Advocate.com (http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64600.asp - broken link)

[tangodoodles]

Originally Posted by izzy

Here is a link to one example of...what's the big deal? This was in a kindergarden class...not a sex education class that I would have to approve...but a tolerance class...which needs approval from no parent.

California Elementary School Comes Under Prop. 8 Fire | News | Advocate.com (http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid64600.asp - broken link)

So now it's terrible to teach our children not to say hate-filled things like F-A-G, Q-U-E-E-R, that's so gay, homo, fairy, etc.? Wow, this is disgusting. For all you know, your ten year old is telling your five year old these things and then he's calling some kid in his class "gay" as an insult. It should be up to parents like you to tell your kids that hate speech is wrong but since you all are failing so badly then maybe it should be up to the teachers to fix your failings.

[krudmonk]

Chuck22b, you can't win with these people. They think voting is the end-all. The foundations of this country can apparently be flushed away because people voted on Tuesday. "The people have spoken!" It's mob rule, the American way.

[Taboo2]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

There are plenty of examples of God rebuking sin and plenty of examples of God using his servants to manifest his will.

God rebuking sin YOU are not God. You are not a prophet Brigham so get over it. Quit acting on behalf of GOd when you do not know for certain what he would want in this situation.

Quit taking his name in vain for your own personal gain.

You are just one very confused person who is trying desperately to be something you are not. Kinda of like me pretending to be an uptight snob. At least I am not that. I know who I am, which happens to not be gay, but I support other humans to have the same right little miss straight family woman (myself) has. I believe what I believe- but in no uncertain terms do I expect that everyone else on earth agree with me. I am not that arrogant and delusional like much of California religious population is. I believe in everyone believing in what they need to, to get by. That is why most people have religion in their life, because without SOMETHING to believe in, life seems too reckless and cruel.

But the MANY of those who voted Yes on 8 are scared of gay people so they must reject anything SCARY because good lord, what if their children turn out gay *and believe me, as you know- some of the best little sunday schoolers turn out gay*, not for lack of brainwashing either.

The other half aren't scared, but they are holier-than-thou which is a sinny sin and God doesn't like people who go around on their high horses when they are just as big a sinners as the rest of the world. That is a big no-no.

I can throw just as many bible versus at you that contradict what you say.

That is the problem with the Bible. It was written by what, 50 people at least?

God doesn't hate us. So why do you? God gave us FREE WILL. And for all of you to judge someone else, whether you think it is right or wrong, is an abomination of God's good name.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


God has nothing to do with the way people voted. They voted out of fear or arrogance.

[chuck22b]

Originally Posted by krudmonk

Chuck22b, you can't win with these people. They think voting is the end-all. The foundations of this country can apparently be flushed away because people voted on Tuesday. "The people have spoken!" It's mob rule, the American way.

It's basically the same things as if the MAJORITY... voted to ban gun ownership totally out of this State. That would be a violation of the law of the Land. Maybe if the issue of gun bans from California should be voted on. I'm sure they won't complain about that constitutional violation.

-chuck22b

[AuburnJack]

Originally Posted by izzy

Example: My 9 year old daughter is not allowed to read teen magazines. They are not "G" rated. Another girl in her class brought in a magazine that had a picture of two women kissing...full blown tongue in the mouth kissing. NOT G RATED!!!

You're right, that is an example. It's an example of the fact that trying to control what Precious Snowflake observes and learns from until they turn 18 is an exercise in futility.

I am not yet a parent, but I am already resigned to the fact that when I do have school-aged children, they will be exposed to things that I would rather they not be exposed to, just like I was. They will say and do things I don't approve of, just like I did. And they will learn to make their own decisions and form their own ethical identities, just like I hope they do.

Gay people exist. They form long-term commitments, have children, raise families. Your children will eventually be exposed to it, and have to process it. And despite your fears, it's not going to warp their ethical worldview unless you tell them it does. I know this from first-hand experience... I don't hate homosexuality as a "sin" or fear that their relationships are going to somehow make the sky fall, because that is a learned behavior that I wasn't taught.

[AuburnJack]

Originally Posted by 18Montclair

True. But since he isnt here on the Earth, we know his will by the mouths of those he's selected to act on his behalf.

Wow.

Just... wow.

What extraordinary arrogance.

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by AuburnJack

Wow.

Just... wow.

What extraordinary arrogance.

Huh? How are we supposed to interpret this?

Amos 3:7Surely the Lord GOD will do nothing, but he revealeth his secret unto his servants the prophets.

[izzy]

Originally Posted by tangodoodles

So now it's terrible to teach our children not to say hate-filled things like F-A-G, Q-U-E-E-R, that's so gay, homo, fairy, etc.? Wow, this is disgusting. For all you know, your ten year old is telling your five year old these things and then he's calling some kid in his class "gay" as an insult. It should be up to parents like you to tell your kids that hate speech is wrong but since you all are failing so badly then maybe it should be up to the teachers to fix your failings.

Wow, you do assume a lot. My children are taught, tolerance at home, at a level I think they can understand.

Example: My son, 6 at the time, refused to play with a black child at school. Now they had just recently been taught black history, which made the kids highly aware of skin color. The history behind blacks in America and the in justices done to them by folks of white background. All of which is history and true. But, my child did not learn to single out a black child at home. He learned it at school. We were made aware of the above and we had a nice chat with our boy about chosing friends based on color. He then told us about what he had learned in history. We explained that he had been friends with this child before the history lesson and he needed to remember what a nice kid and friend he is and how sad he made that child.

So don't judge my parenting...you don't know me.

Izzy

[18Montclair]

Originally Posted by Taboo2

God rebuking sin YOU are not God. You are not a prophet Brigham so get over it. Quit acting on behalf of GOd when you do not know for certain what he would want in this situation.

Quit taking his name in vain for your own personal gain.

You are just one very confused person who is trying desperately to be something you are not. Kinda of like me pretending to be an uptight snob. At least I am not that. I know who I am, which happens to not be gay, but I support other humans to have the same right little miss straight family woman (myself) has. I believe what I believe- but in no uncertain terms do I expect that everyone else on earth agree with me. I am not that arrogant and delusional like much of California religious population is. I believe in everyone believing in what they need to, to get by. That is why most people have religion in their life, because without SOMETHING to believe in, life seems too reckless and cruel.

But the MANY of those who voted Yes on 8 are scared of gay people so they must reject anything SCARY because good lord, what if their children turn out gay *and believe me, as you know- some of the best little sunday schoolers turn out gay*, not for lack of brainwashing either.

The other half aren't scared, but they are holier-than-thou which is a sinny sin and God doesn't like people who go around on their high horses when they are just as big a sinners as the rest of the world. That is a big no-no.

I can throw just as many bible versus at you that contradict what you say.

That is the problem with the Bible. It was written by what, 50 people at least?

God doesn't hate us. So why do you? God gave us FREE WILL. And for all of you to judge someone else, whether you think it is right or wrong, is an abomination of God's good name.

Matthew 5:7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.

Matthew 7:
1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye

Luke 6:36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.
37 Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

James 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.

John 8:7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.


God has nothing to do with the way people voted. They voted out of fear or arrogance.

It is entirely possible to agree to disagree. Although it seems that's probably not gonna happen here.